Constitutional rights and equal protection (gay marriage related)

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Andreusz

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But the general consensus in history is that marriage has always been between man and woman. The gay community could care less about the structure and dignity of marriage and the effects they could cause on it by trying to change it. Show me one gay person that has second questioned what it might do to the structure and dignity of marriage down the line?
Check out my pic.

You've reduced marriage to nothing more than a piece of paper and a court, and nothing more. No wonder the divorce rate is almost 50%.

But the divorce rate has been high for a long time, and gay marriage is a recent issue. How could gay marriage have affected the divorce rate. 'Prae hoc, ergo proper hoc'?? -- congratulations, you have invented a NEW logical fallacy!

Its nothing more than a sexual lifestyle ruled by lust.
Lie.

You have no buisness meddling with marriage when you don't even know what marriage is in the first place.
Why do you assume that gays are so ignorant?




marriage in itself is about sacrifice and conforming to your spouses needs and wants. If your not willing to sacrifice yourself for marriage then you don't have the right mind set in the first place.
I know this. I'm prepared to do it, and so is my boyfriend.
 
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Andreusz

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And how exactly would gay couples getting married undermine your marriage?

Marriage = social respectibility. It will be more difficult to convince your children that gays are evil and disgusting, if they can marry, just like straights.

But if you believe that gays are evil and disgusting, then obviously if they're allowed to get married, it diminishes all other marriages, including your heterosexual one.
 
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Andreusz

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The ancient Egyptians held marriage as a sacred bond. The family was broken down into roles that each would play in order for things to run smoothly. The father was the one who would work all day. In smaller households the mother was in charge of all things pertaining to the house. Cooking, cleaning and watching the children were all her responsibilities. Egyptians seem to have taken mates in what most often appears to be lifelong monogamous relationships. marriage and a close family played an integral role in ancient Egypt.
A bride would be young, about 14 or 15 years old. Her husband could be anywhere from 17 to 20—or older if he was divorced or a widower. The ancient Egyptians were encouraged to marry young, considering that the life span at this time was relatively short.

And as the above shows had the same views on the basics of marriage.
The Pharaohs were expected to marry their sisters.



We see the general consensus of marriage has always been between man and woman.

Berdache marriage was practised among the Amerindian peoples of North America.
 
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BigBadWlf

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It wasn't legal during the time of Abraham or Moses.
Slaughtering your own child was legal during the time of Abraham or Moses

And was deemed such an abomination to God that stoning was prescribed.
Not by any literal reading of the bible.
However if you want to run try to use this line to justify your prejudices then you are left to explain why you are cherry picking old testament laws to inflict on other people while ignoring hundreds of other old testament laws in living your own life. Do we live under a new covenant or not?



Hinduism, which makes the claim to be the oldest religion also denys same sex "marriage".
You have yet to explain why you are not advocating and glorifying discrimination against non-Christians

Technically the concept of a monogamous marriage has always come from judeo-christian heritage.
^_^

Yeah right

To believe that you have to ignore…well the bible. But then to justify hatred and discrimination you have to ignore the teachings of Jesus as well…so it isn’t that big of a leap

Monogamy in marriage was not a concept practiced by the Hebrews. Polygamy was the norm, as was levirate marriage, concubines, the use of rape to force women and girls into marriage and rape in general was accepted


The pagan form of "marriage" was more common as "unions" and not really marriage in the sense. Marriage in the sense we see it comes from the Hebrew law and then through its fullfillment in Christ. Women are to be in subjection to their husbands, meek, quiet, caretakers of home and child rearing. The husband is to support, work, and keep stability of his family and children. This is not possible with 2 people of the same sex because of materal and paternal instinct and the different natures between man and woman. This is what has been prescribed by God in both NT and OT.
^_^


The notion of marriage as a sacrament and not just a contract can be traced St. Paul who compared the relationship of a husband and wife to that of Christ and his church (Eph. v, 23-32).
Your weak protests aside Maren is correct. Marriage was not recognized as a sacrament by the church until very recent times. The early church either ignored marriage or actively tried to discourage it. The church thought marriage was a “necessary evil” at best and it wasn’t until the 18th century that marriage ceremonies even began to take place in churches.


Also, marriage is a special right. Not a regular one
The supreme court says otherwise.
 
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CreedIsChrist

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Marriage = social respectibility. It will be more difficult to convince your children that gays are evil and disgusting, if they can marry, just like straights.

But if you believe that gays are evil and disgusting, then obviously if they're allowed to get married, it diminishes all other marriages, including your heterosexual one.


Wrong. It will change the mindset of many future familys on marriage, children and family, and thus will effect them in the long run. How can they raise children correctly when they think that a mother or father isn't even necessary anymore? And if they think a mother or father isn't even necessary anymore they will much more be inclined to divorce or seperate if something ever wrong happens.

Or when young dumb girls see celebritys on the TV getting married for 1 month and then divorced and are inspired by such acts of rebellion and desecration of marriage. Must marriage be dragged in the mud any more than it has? Do you realize the impression this is gonna make on our future generations parenting?
 
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selfinflikted

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Wrong. It will change the mindset of many future familys on marriage, children and family, and thus will effect them in the long run. How can they raise children correctly when they think that a mother or father isn't even necessary anymore?

A mother and father are not necessary to raise a child.

And if they think a mother or father isn't even necessary anymore they will much more be inclined to divorce or seperate if something ever wrong happens.

Because staying in a failed marriage because of the children is the right thing to do! >.>

Do you realize the impression this is gonna make on our future generations parenting?

..that people might realise that there are all kinds of families, and that no two families are the same? I don't think that'd be a bad thing at all.
 
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BigBadWlf

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The earliest records of marriage are in the times of Abraham and the Egyptians.
Not even remotely

Sumerian traditions pre-date or are contemporary to the Egyptian. There is evidence that a firmly established culture was thriving in China that significanlty pre-dates the Egyptians.


And they were all understood as between man and woman. And right from the writings of Genesis we see the plan for both man and woman. Long before any roman empire
Well the Egyptian notion of marriage seems to be monogamous which was very different form the later Hebrew notion of marriage.
And the ancient Egyptians also recognized same sex marriage…imagine that





COuld you provide some evidence to this?
It was introduced into the Indian Penal Code by the British government in 1860





No I was using this as evidence that even pagan "religions" denied same sex marriage. Which goes to prove the structure of what marriage always has been understood as.
And you failed to show this



Christianity is connected with the Old Covenant, which makes it alot older than you think it is. Since Christ is eternal he was here before any of us were even born. And through his lips he says:

and He answered and said to them, “Have you not read that He who made them at the beginning ‘made them male and female,’ and said, ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’? So then, they are no longer two but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate.”

They said to Him, “Why then did Moses command to give a certificate of divorce, and to put her away?” He said to them, “Moses, because of the hardness of your hearts, permitted you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so. And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery; and whoever marries her who is divorced commits adultery.” - Matthew 19
Do Christians live under a new covenant?

Or are you advocating cherry picking old testament laws?





Just because it wasn't officially defined dosen't make it so earlier.
Um…yeah it does
 
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BigBadWlf

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But the general consensus in history is that marriage has always been between man and woman.
False

As demonstrated more times here than anyone can possibly count.

Even if that were not the case it is not a legitimate argument for hatred and discrimination. You are presenting an appeal to history or tradition which is a logical fallacy. It follows the same notion of justifying slavery because it is the consensus of history that slavery is a morally acceptable thing. This historic view does not make slavery morally acceptable no matter what the bible says and it is not a justification for the enslavement of others.


The gay community could care less about the structure and dignity of marriage and the effects they could cause on it by trying to change it.

The pro-hate forces are the ones not caring about the dignity of marriage as they are using it as a tool to promote and justify bigotry against minorities.


Show me one gay person that has second questioned what it might do to the structure and dignity of marriage down the line? You've reduced marriage to nothing more than a piece of paper and a court, and nothing more.
Show me one anti-gay argument that isn’t just recycled racism



No wonder the divorce rate is almost 50%.

Oh no!...lesbians are forcing people to get divorced at gun point! :swoon:



The first 2 big hits were divorce and then abortion. Is gay marriage gonna be strike 3? totally stripe marriage of any dignity and chivalry it has? and when the divorce rate gets to 60% what are you gonna say to over half of all the children in America with no father or mother?
Don’t forget the evils of civil rights and the legal recognition of interracial marriage.





Its nothing more than a sexual lifestyle ruled by lust.
Are you speaking of your parents marriage?
Or is it wrong to use the same attack you are using against minorities?


this has nothing to do with fearing gay people.

Hatred and prejudice always are rooted in fear

This has to do with ruining many future familys and our next generation of children by ruining to structure of marriage and family. All this is gonna do is raise the divorce rates even higher and thus create a whole new set of problems,
Is it not equally valid to be concerned about the destruction ad devaluing of families that the discrimination you are advocating will cause present and future families?


considering that children born out of wedlock or divorce have almost a 50% chance higher of going to prison and getting into crime.
Another thing in your posts that is not true.
What has been found is that the children of single parents do not suffer any disadvantage in regards to such things as adult crime rate because of having a single parent. Rather when comparing children raised by a single parent to children raised by a couple such differences disappear when children of the same socio-economic status are compared. It is the availability to economic resources that affect children, not the number of parents they have.


marriage in itself is about sacrifice and conforming to your spouses needs and wants. If your not willing to sacrifice yourself for marriage then you don't have the right mind set in the first place.
And how are you pretending that same gendered couples do not sacrifice for their partner just as heterosexual couples do?
 
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BigBadWlf

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Gay "marriage" will hurt the dignity, structure, and chivalry of future marriage because it will cause people to have a lessened and cheapened view on marriage, which in turn will cause people to view marriage as less important and more disposable, which can only cause one thing, increased divorce and lessened family structure. Its no different when people see celebritys get married for a month and then divorced after. It puts an imprint on regular peoples minds, especially people who do not have the truth and are unable to discern between good and evil. Take a look at what Feminism, abortion, and Divorce has caused to marriage today. Its no different with gay marriage. They all devalue the dignity and structure of marriage and the proof in the pudding is the alarming divorce rates that soared once divorce, feminism and abortion became "acceptable" in society.
Actually it is your use of marriage to attack minorities and foster hatred and discrimination that is devaluing marriage.
 
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BigBadWlf

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religioustolerance is not a good site to base divorce statistics on. Secondly christian countrys like Armenia, Italy, Greece and Macedonia have the lowest divorce rates in the world. America is not a good place to base divorce statistics of professing christians on.
ReligiousTolerance was accurately reporting the findings of various studies on divorce including the Barna study. The fact you do not like the results does not change the results.


It common knowledge that evangelical Christians have the highest divorce rates. Meanwhile atheists and Jews have the lowest.

The various studies on divorce also show something interesting (and something you won’t like) the States most accepting of same gendered marriage have the lowest divorce rates. Massachusetts for example is not only the first state in the Union to recognize same gendered marriage it also has the lowest divorce rate in the country. The current divorce rate in Massachusetts, 2.1 per 1,000, is the same as the national divorce rate was in 1940. Meanwhile the states with the highest divorce rates, Alaska, Texas, Kentucky, Oklahoma, Mississippi, Alabama and Missouri are all very opposed to equal rights for gays and lesbians
 
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BigBadWlf

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BBW, do you have reference for this?

Do you really need to ask ME if I have a reference?

You know I always do :cool:

One of the nicest examples Is Khnumhotep and Niankhkhnum. Both men were overseers of the Manicurists in the Palace of King Miuserre durring the fifth dynasty circa 2400 B.C.E. Their joint tomb was discovered in 1964. their portrate shows them embracing, specifically touching noses the most intimate pose allowed in art work at the time and something limited to marreid couples. Their epitaf lists them as married, "joined (married) in life and joined in death"
Michael Rice, Who's Who in Ancient Egypt, Routledge 2001,
 
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keith99

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I understand why blacks may be offended by the gay movement claiming to be the same. Blacks were enslaved, lost their families and culture (you know, back when this was a Christian nation), and had to fight for basic Civil Rights (back in the good old days when people were moral.)

However, there are similarities. Blacks were lynched, gays are beat up and often beaten brutally to death. In one case, the killer pleaded the Gay Panic Defense, and actually got away with murder. Blacks have about 10 slurs you can call them, Whites have only 1 or 2. Gays have about 10 slurs you can call them, and Straights have only breeder. Blacks had trouble being hired because of racism. Gays were once fired, not because of their job, but because they were gay, and they had no legal recourse. Blacks led marches of peaceful protest. After Stonewall, gays began to come out of the closet and have peaceful protests, Gay Pride.

I was at a conference on Seeing Whiteness. At one point, a black person started saying that they had a much more difficult time fighting for their rights that the Indian women who said she could relate. He argued that her people weren't taken from their native land, culture, language, and family. She argued that the first settlers didn't come to Africa and kill of most of the natives, like her race experienced.

One can play the "who's more oppressed" game, but the truth is, injustice is injustice.

Nope. Het is also used as an insult. It just happens I learned from how my parents taught my sister to deal with teasing as a kid and I freely use Het to describe myself instead of 'straight' since I have little or no homoerotic interest, but am in other ways far from straight. Oh and Straight is used as an insult too. That one is rather sad as straight and square both used to refer to honesty rather than sex.
 
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Maren

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The ancient Egyptians held marriage as a sacred bond. The family was broken down into roles that each would play in order for things to run smoothly. The father was the one who would work all day. In smaller households the mother was in charge of all things pertaining to the house. Cooking, cleaning and watching the children were all her responsibilities. Egyptians seem to have taken mates in what most often appears to be lifelong monogamous relationships. marriage and a close family played an integral role in ancient Egypt.
A bride would be young, about 14 or 15 years old. Her husband could be anywhere from 17 to 20—or older if he was divorced or a widower. The ancient Egyptians were encouraged to marry young, considering that the life span at this time was relatively short.

Zoroster also had the similar view. In the end, all were between man and woman. Most of the time a young man and young woman under guidance of the parents.

Sorry, but no. First, I asked for a link as to marriage laws, not what the typical marriage was like. For example, while your link claims "A bride would be young, about 14 or 15 years old", I'm sure they don't mean to say that only 14 or 15 year old women could marry. In the same way, nowhere does it say that it could only be a man and woman, this is merely saying what was typical. Much like if gays were allowed to marry, since gays are fewer than 10% of the population, a man and woman would still be the typical marriage.

Instead, we do have evidence, as BigBadWlf pointed out, that gay marriage did occur in ancient Egypt.

As for your portion bolded in red, the differences of the woman being in the home are primarily technology related. As late as 60 years ago, women spent most of their day just cooking. Of course, included in cooking was the time it took to build and maintain the fires. Flour often came as wheat, and had to be ground, they had to churn their own butter, etc. It was with the invention of packaged and processed foods about a century ago that started changing things, as well as gas and electric stoves and ovens. Simply put, a woman is no longer bound to the kitchen as she was in earlier centuries.

And even if you are correct, does this mean that our age of consent laws are wrong? After all, historically females did marry in their early teen years so apparently we have changed marriage from what it was historicall.

And as the above shows had the same views on the basics of marriage.

And as I point out above, you have been proven wrong on this. Not to mention as others have pointed out, the practice of polygamy and concubines was allowed in ancient Israel which is another change in marriage.

Those are not old manuscripts like the Veda

You asked for evidence, not for quotes from the Veda. Though I do find it ironic since Tritiya-Prakriti is the Sanskrit word found in the Veda that translates to "third sex". If you studied, there are plenty of refrences to be found in the Veda.

We see the general consensus of marriage has always been between man and woman. I believe things happen for a reason and its no accident that something that has existed nearly as long as man has always been what it was understood as; a monogamous union betwen man and woman. Does a small community, really have the right to all of a sudden change probably 6-8 thousand years of what marriage always has been and was? You don't find this at all a great disrespect to the dignity and honor of marriage?

Again, historically there are plenty of examples of homosexual marriage. But even if that weren't true, let me paraphrase what you just said:
Does a small community, really have the right all of a sudden change probably 6-8 thousand years of what slavery always has been and was? You don't find this all a great disrespect to the dignity and honor of slavery?

As was pointed out to you by BigBadWlf, you are simply appealing to history. And simply because something was done historically does not show that it was right.

The bibles reference to homosexuality as sin only gives you one option left by default however.

That is debated among Christians but it really has no bearing on US law. Much like Divorce is wrong per the Bible but no Christians are trying to outlaw it; and, per your own claims, divorce is even a greater threat to marriage.


please read again the red bold from Ambrose.

16. All lawmakers, in and out of the Church are warned, to their peril, to hear and obey the Word of the Lord in regard to His commands on marriage and divorce. (Ambrose)

But that still says nothing about the church regulating or performing marriage. That merely says that members of the church should follow the scriptures. If I point out an early church father pointing out that people should hear and obey the word of the Lord in regard to caring for the poor that means that only the church is allowed to care for the poor? Do you see where your logic fails here?

And again I wouldn't use American divorce stastistics as proof from religioustolerance.com.

You don't like religioustolerance just because they disagree with you? The statistics they quote are all referenced, and from what I've seen they quote the studies accurately. If you can find where they haven't referenced or have misrepresented these statistics, I'd be interested in seeing it.

I could give you several christian nations that have the lowest divorce rate in the world like Armenia and Macedonia.

And India has even lower divorce rates, which is not Christian. The fact is that most Christian countries have much higher divorce rates.

But to get back to the point, you have no evidence that gay marriage will cause a weakening of marriage, just vague claims and fearmongering.

you could in a sense. But that still dosen't negate the fact that there are special prerequisites for marriage , those special prerequisites are what define it in the first place.

So you claim, though you have provided no evidence to prove that. In fact, the evidence so far shows the opposite.
 
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jcook922

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Gay marriage not an issue of equality


Folks seeking to nix a law on equal protection grounds who belong to non-suspect classifications can still succeed if they can prove that there is no rational basis for the government's position. Gays will be unable to do that.
Why not?
Inequivalence between marriage and race

When a law purportedly discriminates based on a non-protected class (such as were blacks before the Civil Rights movement), anyone trying to challenge government action on equal protection grounds has the burden of demonstrating that the law is discriminatory, and that there is no rational basis for the law's discriminatory purpose or effect. In other words, the gay community has the burden to prove they are being discriminated against. Contrast that with suspect classifications: if someone challenges a government action on the ground that it discriminates on the basis of a suspect classification, the government has the burden of demonstrating that the law has some compelling justification. The government had no justification in segregating blacks from whites, because the burden couldn’t be produced; blacks, by there very nature, do not differ one iota from whites, with exception to darker skin (Blacks are offended that they have been compared to gays against their will and without their approval). For this reason, the government may freely discriminate until a gay person can explain how the government is wrong in doing so.

Marriage as a public display

Marriage is more than the solemnization of private relationship: it is the public recognition of the relationship. Thus, gay marriage cannot be thought of as a private issue, covered under privacy laws (such as Roe v. Wade, for example).
Efforts needed to protect marriage

You are not allowed to marry: a relative, the family dog, someone who is already married, someone who is underage, a member of the same gender. The gov't is far less interested in the goings-on behind the scenes, and far more interested protecting the institution of marriage from assault by bigamists, homosexuals, and the family dog.

There are only so many rights that are considered fundamental. These rights deserve very strict protection. Other "rights" do not deserve any Constitutional protection, and therefore laws may be written that undermine those rights if there is a rational basis for doing so.
Gay marriage can’t be compared to segregation of the blacks because gender-orientation is not a suspect classification. Race is a suspect classification.

Who are you to make such a declaration? And if you cite the bible, since most do as it's the only sound argument against prop 8, I'd just as soon tell you to gtfo for violating seperation of church and state.
 
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SiderealExalt

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I don't understand this protect marriage stuff. So it's ok for Bill and Jane to boff each other for a few weeks, get married in an Elvis Chapel, find out they hate each other and get a divorce. But if Steve and John or Lucy and Stacy, who have loved each other faithfully for years want to get married...OH NOES!! Marriage R Under Attak!!!!!

*shakes head*

Yeah that's "saving" marriage, that's living up to biblical "standards."

Oy....
 
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jcook922

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I don't understand this protect marriage stuff. So it's ok for Bill and Jane to boff each other for a few weeks, get married in an Elvis Chapel, find out they hate each other and get a divorce. But if Steve and John or Lucy and Stacy, who have loved each other faithfully for years want to get married...OH NOES!! Marriage R Under Attak!!!!!

*shakes head*

Yeah that's "saving" marriage, that's living up to biblical "standards."

Oy....

Heterosexuals have been getting it wrong since the conception of the idea of marriage, and Christians would just as soon not give gays a chance to even give it a try. I personally think for how hard they've had to work for it, that gays would be extra motivated to make their marriages work, just to prove the naysayers wrong.
 
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