Is it OK to be Lutheran and believe in the Rapture?

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Christopher777

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I'm asking this question because as I've been delving farther into Christian theology, I've discovered that Lutherans don't believe in the Rapture (which is clearly stated in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18). To be honest, the hope of the Rapture coming possibly soon is what keeps me going everyday.
I was not aware of this little fact when I decided to remain Lutheran a while ago (as opposed to becoming Catholic or Pentecostal). I'd like to stay Lutheran, but only if my beliefs about the end times are tolerated by other Lutherans. I've spent enough of my life being a "black sheep".
I've also been told that most Lutherans don't believe in the Millennial Kingdom, either. Now this is very clearly talked about in Revelation.
I guess it just frustrates me when Christians say they don't believe in things that are explained nicely in the Bible.
 

Melethiel

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The "Rapture" described in Thessalonians is put forth as being at the Last Trumpet, or at the second coming of Christ. Nowhere is the popular Left Behind idea of the "Rapture" stated in Scripture.

As for the millenial kingdom, Revelation is a symbolic book. Why is that one section literal while the rest symbolic? I don't buy it. It also directly contradicts Christ's statement that His kingdom is "not of this world."
 
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Protoevangel

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Lutherans do believe in the Rapture of 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18. What we do not believe in is the unscriptural literalistic millennial hogwash of modern-day evangelicalism. You will find the same of Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Anglicans, etc.
 
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KEPLER

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I'm asking this question because as I've been delving farther into Christian theology, I've discovered that Lutherans don't believe in the Rapture (which is clearly stated in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18). To be honest, the hope of the Rapture coming possibly soon is what keeps me going everyday.
I was not aware of this little fact when I decided to remain Lutheran a while ago (as opposed to becoming Catholic or Pentecostal). I'd like to stay Lutheran, but only if my beliefs about the end times are tolerated by other Lutherans. I've spent enough of my life being a "black sheep".
I've also been told that most Lutherans don't believe in the Millennial Kingdom, either. Now this is very clearly talked about in Revelation.
I guess it just frustrates me when Christians say they don't believe in things that are explained nicely in the Bible.

C777,

You need to take some time to define your terms. Luthers DO believe in both a "rapture" and a"millenium" but we define them the way the Bible defines them, not as Hal Lindsay and the popular "left Behind" fiction series defines them.

You must understand that those beliefs err in their eschatology because they err in their doctrine of salvation. In their beliefs, salvation is contingent on a "decision" humans make to follow Jesus; in Lutheran theology, salvation depends only on the Grace of God, received only by Faith in the crucifixion, death, burial and resurrection of Christ.

There are two links provided at the following linked page which might help to clarify:

http://www.lcms.org/pages/internal.asp?NavID=2174

Kepler
 
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C.F.W. Walther

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IowaLutheran

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I'm asking this question because as I've been delving farther into Christian theology, I've discovered that Lutherans don't believe in the Rapture (which is clearly stated in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18). To be honest, the hope of the Rapture coming possibly soon is what keeps me going everyday.
I was not aware of this little fact when I decided to remain Lutheran a while ago (as opposed to becoming Catholic or Pentecostal). I'd like to stay Lutheran, but only if my beliefs about the end times are tolerated by other Lutherans. I've spent enough of my life being a "black sheep".
I've also been told that most Lutherans don't believe in the Millennial Kingdom, either. Now this is very clearly talked about in Revelation.
I guess it just frustrates me when Christians say they don't believe in things that are explained nicely in the Bible.

On the one hand, I think you'll have a hard time finding someone on a Lutheran message board say they will agree to it or even tolerate a belief in the rapture, because Lutherans who tend to post on Lutheran message boards tend to be more interested in theology then the average layperson, and no Lutheran theologian that I am aware of, whether liberal or conservative, has ever said that the rapture is acceptable Lutheran theology.

On the other hand, amongst the general Lutheran population, I would guess that you probably find lots of Lutheran churches where you can find copies of Left Behind books on the library shelves. I've talked to active Lutherans who do not seem to object to the theory. This is because some Lutheran congregations, both ELCA and LCMS, have become more like American-style protestant evangelical churches than traditional Lutheran churches.

As far as your frustation goes, I am sorry you feel that way. You are still my brother in Christ. However, I hope you respect why most of us do not believe in a theory of Biblical interpretation that was invented in approximately 1830, 300 years after the Reformation and 1800 years after the Pentecost.
 
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BigNorsk

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Christopher777,

People have given you some pretty good advise so far. Those references Kepler gave you will get you started.

Another good recent reference that we have talked about before is the Book: The Rapture Exposed: The Message of Hope in The Book of Revelation by Barbara Rossing. Since this area is a concern of yours, I would think the $10 or so to get a copy would be well worth it. She lays out the problems with some of the commonly accepted views of the endtimes, both theologically and in the damaging results that it produces in people's lives.

Dispensationalism has some major problems, but is so widely taught that it kind of has the field to itself and you've probably noticed that when one person in a debate talks they seem right until the other gets up and speaks and then you find there are all kinds of holes in their arguements.

For instance most dispensationalists are too rigid in their understandings of the dispensations if you asked them to separate the Law and Gospel in the Bible, they would just flip to Matthew and say it's right there that the Gospel starts, and what was before that was the previous dispensations. Well, the Apostle Paul would go in the synagogs and teach the Gospel from Scripture, the only scripture he had was what we call the Old Testament, the Old Testament contains the Gospel.

Or take this passage from Acts. NET Translation:
2:14 But Peter stood up 25 with the eleven, raised his voice, and addressed them: “You men of Judea 26 and all you who live in Jerusalem, 27 know this 28 and listen carefully to what I say. 2:15 In spite of what you think, these men are not drunk, 29 for it is only nine o’clock in the morning. 30 2:16 But this is what was spoken about through the prophet Joel: 31
2:17 ‘And in the last days 32 it will be,’ God says,
‘that I will pour out my Spirit on all people, 33
and your sons and your daughters will prophesy,
and your young men will see visions,
and your old men will dream dreams.
2:18 Even on my servants, 34 both men and women,
I will pour out my Spirit in those days, and they will prophesy. 35
2:19 And I will perform wonders in the sky 36 above
and miraculous signs 37 on the earth below,
blood and fire and clouds of smoke.
2:20 The sun will be changed to darkness
and the moon to blood
before the great and glorious 38 day of the Lord comes.

See right there you have none other than the Apostle Peter as recorded in scripture telling us that they were already in the last days, in other words the millenial kingdom. Amillenialism is not saying there is no millenium, it is agreeing with clear scripture that the millenium has already started. It doesn't make the mistake of taking the 1000 years as written in the least literal book of the Bible as a literal 1000 years but rather the way it was used in the culture of the time to represent a long time. So rather than denying a millenium, amillenialism says that we are living it.

In any case, I doubt that you will have much trouble with your views in a Lutheran church, generally there just isn't that much time spent on the end times prophecies. Now if you can't control yourself and you stand up and scream out the latest prophecy each week from the tv preachers, then you would probably have some problems, but I doubt it would come up much with the possible exception of if you were going to teach a class on the end times or certainly if you went to get trained to be a minister.

In the end, if you decide to stay dispensationalist, I would recommend at least studying progressive dispensationalism. It comes the closest to accepting scripture of the many flavors of dispensationalism.

Marv
 
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LutherNut

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I'm asking this question because as I've been delving farther into Christian theology, I've discovered that Lutherans don't believe in the Rapture (which is clearly stated in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18). To be honest, the hope of the Rapture coming possibly soon is what keeps me going everyday.
I was not aware of this little fact when I decided to remain Lutheran a while ago (as opposed to becoming Catholic or Pentecostal). I'd like to stay Lutheran, but only if my beliefs about the end times are tolerated by other Lutherans. I've spent enough of my life being a "black sheep".
I've also been told that most Lutherans don't believe in the Millennial Kingdom, either. Now this is very clearly talked about in Revelation.
I guess it just frustrates me when Christians say they don't believe in things that are explained nicely in the Bible.

The "Rapture" as described in 1 Thessalonians 4 is an event that will occur on the Last Day. Jesus teaches about His return in Matthew 24 & 25. The Thessalonian church was concerned that their loved ones who have passed away would miss Christ's return. Paul is assuring them that they will not miss it... in fact, they will meet the Lord first, "then we who are alive will be caught up...".

Yes, Lutherans believe in the Rapture, as described in the Scriptures, the great ressurection of the dead, that event that will occur on the Last Day when Christ returns to judge the living and the dead.

The "Millenium" that many evangelical traditions have grossly misinterpreted is a description of the current Church age, the time when Christ reigns over His Kingdom. That Kingdom is here and now. The end of the "millenium" occurs on the Last Day when Christ returns, the dead are resurrected, Christ the King judges the living and the dead, and we who are in Christ shall be with Him in His presence forever in the New Heaven and the New Earth.

What a wonderful future we have in Christ!!!:amen: :clap:

There is a wonderful article in the November Lutheran Witness (click here for PDF file) titles "Who's Land is It?" written by Concordia Seminary professor Dr. Reed Lessing. You would learn a lot about this issue from a truly Lutheran perspective.
 
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C.F.W. Walther

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I'm asking this question because as I've been delving farther into Christian theology, I've discovered that Lutherans don't believe in the Rapture (which is clearly stated in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18). To be honest, the hope of the Rapture coming possibly soon is what keeps me going everyday.
I was not aware of this little fact when I decided to remain Lutheran a while ago (as opposed to becoming Catholic or Pentecostal). I'd like to stay Lutheran, but only if my beliefs about the end times are tolerated by other Lutherans. I've spent enough of my life being a "black sheep".
I've also been told that most Lutherans don't believe in the Millennial Kingdom, either. Now this is very clearly talked about in Revelation.
I guess it just frustrates me when Christians say they don't believe in things that are explained nicely in the Bible.

Another thing that I told my oldest boy, who is into esctology very heavy, is "What difference does is make when Jesus comes as long as you're ready". I seen too many people use it as an excuse to wait till the last minute to get their act together. I think that's what my son is doing since he "lives" with his girlfriend and hasn't raised his kids and doesn't attend church. 'Nuff said.
 
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LilLamb219

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To be honest, the hope of the Rapture coming possibly soon is what keeps me going everyday.

Christopher, I'm curious what you mean by the above statement. Is it referring to Christ's second coming as Lutherans believe or as the Left Behind group believes?
 
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LutherNut

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Another thing that I told my oldest boy, who is into esctology very heavy, is "What difference does is make when Jesus comes as long as you're ready". I seen too many people use it as an excuse to wait till the last minute to get their act together. I think that's what my son is doing since he "lives" with his girlfriend and hasn't raised his kids and doesn't attend church. 'Nuff said.

Eschatology is merely the study of the end times. It isn't a name for any type of premillenial hype.
Another word for it is "Parousia."
 
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Edial

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Rapture will happen.
Concerning pre-tribulational rapture - there is not one verse proving that.
Yet there is a distinct event of being caught up in the air. Mid-tribulation, post-tribulation? I am not certain.

Concerning amillenianism.
In my view, Lutheranism does not have a good case for amillenianism.

One of the weak points of Lutheranism is their eschatology.

Fortunately, this topic is not covered in the Confessions, ... so, theologically Lutheranism is simply silent on it.

Yet many Lutherans do not accept that silence and take charge while the Confessions are silent. :)

Concerning being a "black sheep".:)

There is being a "black sheep" for being wrong (not having Scriptural support) ... and there is being a "black sheep" while having Scriptural support.

Re-examine the pre-trib rapture and I'll respond to each verse that they present showing that there are NO VERSES proving pre-trib rapture. Yet rapture will happen towards the end of Tribulation (in my view).
But why be a "black sheep" while having no Scriptural support for pre-trib rapture?

But millenianism - Scriptures are clear that there will be a millenium. "Black sheep" in that context? Why worry? You have Scriptures on your side. :)

I was called here about everything under the sun (within the Forum rules and outside :D :) ) concerning the millenianism. :)

But don't look for a group following the pre-trib rapture.
There are side effects.

Thanks, :)
Ed
 
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LutherNut

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Concerning amillenianism.
In my view, Lutheranism does not have a good case for amillenianism.

Lutherans do not hold to "amillenialism" which literally means "no millenium." The "millenium" refers to the "1000 years" mentioned in Revelation which is symbolic of the current Church age, the time when Christ reigns. That age is presently being realized, thus Lutherans, who hold to the Scriptural teachings of eschatology, hold to what is known as "realized millenium." The "1000 year reign" is here and now.
 
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paladin_carvin

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Well, I don't personally know much about the end of the world. I used to be pretty into the left behind stuff, but it was at a time where I was hungry for easy reading that had some kind of Christian faith behind it, and I ate it up without really thinking about it. Since then I've rejected Christ and thanks to the grace of God, he has returned the gift of my faith. But, now I do not take anything for granted, and quite frankly, there are things I don't agree with the Lutheran church with- some because I think opposite, some because I am not sure. But above anything, I consider myself Lutheran for a few simple reasons. 1)I agree that communion is not a symbol, but really the body and blood of Christ 2) I believe in traditional church service (i.e., hymns, sermon, confession... no freakin' rock bands, you know what I mean) 3) I consider my fellow Lutherans, even the ones I disagree with highly (LCMS etc.) to be my brothers and sisters (even though I'm sure it is not mutual with everyone). 4) I believe faith is a gift of God, not a personal ability. It can be rejected, but never is a work of ones own credit.
 
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Jim47

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Another thing that I told my oldest boy, who is into esctology very heavy, is "What difference does is make when Jesus comes as long as you're ready". I seen too many people use it as an excuse to wait till the last minute to get their act together. I think that's what my son is doing since he "lives" with his girlfriend and hasn't raised his kids and doesn't attend church. 'Nuff said.



The whole idea of this was man made, and fairly recent invention. A few more things that will help dispell it, as Radidio said above, many people use it as an excuse for lazy iving and procrastinaton, thinking they have 1000 years to get themselves right with The Lord after a live of selfish sin.

First of all, they pick out just a handful of verses from the bible, Daniel, Thessalonians, and Revelation. They take these verses out of context and completely ignore the picturesque writing in Revelations. What they should be doing is basing their faith and understanding on passages that are clearly written, the promises of God.

Next, they are trying to establish the old Jewish belief that Jesus would come back and set up an eartly kingdom, but Jesus said "my kingdom is not of this world"


Like the others said, their beliefs are heavily into decison theology, that in fact they will have the 1000 year reign to make their decision for Christ.

Also a gospil of works righteousness. This comepletely undermines the saving works of Jesus, saying this work was not quite enough, that they will finally have to work things off during the thousand year reign and get right with God.

The starnge thing is, that those churches among this belief don't even agree with each other, they all pick and choose what sounds the best to them. Sinful man wants to be in control of his destiny, and thats all this is about.

If you die in faith that Jesus suffered and died to erase your sins, then when you pass away you will be taken to be with Him. If not, then you will go the way of this sinful world. Jesus said, I am the way, the truth and the light, No one goes to Father except by Me.

When judgement comes, those believe will be spared judgement, We will be of you chose the term, be raptured, we will be called from the grave, where we will meet the believers still alive, and in the twinkling of an eye, we will be given new bodies, spiritual bodies wihout sin or any the weakness that we know in this life. From the grave to the banquet served by Our Lord in Heaven. That is what we have to look forward to. Eternal life with Our Lord in bodies that will have no pain, suffering or sickness, only pure glee, and spending eternity with The Lord who as so graciously lavished His love upon us.

Beets the rapture theory don't you think? And we have Jesus sure promises that it will happen just that way.
 
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Edial

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Lutherans do not hold to "amillenialism" which literally means "no millenium." The "millenium" refers to the "1000 years" mentioned in Revelation which is symbolic of the current Church age, the time when Christ reigns. That age is presently being realized, thus Lutherans, who hold to the Scriptural teachings of eschatology, hold to what is known as "realized millenium." The "1000 year reign" is here and now.
Oh, they can hold to whatever they prefer. :)

The Bible however, does not agree with them.

The problem is, the Bible describes that during that time period there will be tremendous peace in the world ...

I guess I could shut off the TV ... :)
 
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Zecryphon

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"Next, they are trying to establish the old Jewish belief that Jesus would come back and set up an eartly kingdom, but Jesus said "my kingdom is not of this world""

It's true Jesus did say this. But what about what is written in Revelation 21:1

"Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea."

So let's indulge ourselves and look at this verse in relation to the claims of the Left Behind series theology. When Jesus returns to set up His millenial kingdom on the new earth, His words are true. His kingdom is not of this world that we are currently living in, but will be of the new earth and the new heaven that is yet to come. That interpretation seems to fit in with the whole Left Behind theology of dispensationalism. Is this a possibility?
 
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