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		<title>Christian Forums - General Theology</title>
		<link>http://www.christianforums.com</link>
		<description>The forum for general theological discussions about issues that do not fit in any other forum, eg. Angelology</description>
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			<title>Christian Forums - General Theology</title>
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			<title>Boredom in Church</title>
			<link>http://www.christianforums.com/t7419124/</link>
			<pubDate>Fri, 20 Nov 2009 17:55:33 GMT</pubDate>
			<description>*
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 *Boredom in Church*
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If I were to ask you whether you ever found Liturgy boring, that is, ever found yourself bored during Liturgy, what would you answer? I think most people would be able to say that, at least some of the time, they do. The next question...</description>
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				<font size="3"><font face="Times New Roman"><font face="Times New Roman"><font size="3">If I were to ask you whether you ever found Liturgy boring, that is, ever found yourself bored during Liturgy, what would you answer? I think most people would be able to say that, at least some of the time, they do. The next question then, is why? I want to give three reasons why I think it is so. </font></font></font></font><br />
 <br />
<font size="3"><font face="Times New Roman"><font size="3"><font face="Times New Roman">The first is because we have become accustomed to, even dependent on constant, unceasing amusement and distraction. We have no silence, no quiet; we are surrounded by constant stimuli: cell phones, text messaging, Facebook, movies, television, video games, etc. We have so many option to distract ourselves, that we seldom seek the quiet needed to really think or pray. When we are not amusing ourselves, then we are bored. But quiet is necessary for any real spiritual life. If we let our lives be characterized with constant amusement and distraction, the Church cannot compete, for it does not offer these things.</font></font></font></font><br />
 <br />
<div align="left"><font size="3"><font face="Times New Roman"><font size="3"><font face="Times New Roman">Secondly, and related, is the fact that we are hedonists &#8211; we live for the sake of experiencing pleasure. Our culture tells us that this is normal. If we are not experiencing pleasure or &#8216;having fun&#8217;, then we feel somehow deprived. Such an attitude puts us at the center of our own world. Of course, as long as we remain self-centered, the Christian life &#8211; and the worship of the Church &#8211; will seem miserable, because these things are God-centered; and we will end up asking ourselves: &#8220;Can&#8217;t church be shorter? funner? more entertaining? easier?!&#8221; The paradox however, is that we are not happiest when we are at the center of our own world. Ultimately, happiness does not come from hedonism (living for fun). It may come as a surprise, but fun is NOT the key to happiness.</font></font></font></font></div> <br />
<div align="left"><font size="3"><font face="Times New Roman"><font size="3"><font face="Times New Roman">And this brings us to our third reason, namely, that the worship of the Church is a thing very foreign to us. For may of us, it has no connection to the rest of our life. If we do not pray regularly during the rest of the week, and if we do not make peace and stillness some part of our life during the week, then when we come to church on Sunday morning, we will be entering into something very different from the rest of our life, something that goes against the grain of how we normally live.</font></font></font></font></div> <br />
<div align="left"><font size="3"><font face="Times New Roman"><font size="3"><font face="Times New Roman">I am afraid that the above points describe most of us, teens and adults, to a greater or lesser degree. It is simply part of living in 21st century Western society. But I want to give three suggestions to help us work against this reality, and so enable us to draw greater treasures out of the Liturgy than we would otherwise: 1) Firstly, learn to cultivate a love for silence; learn to live at least a little bit each day without stimuli. Turn the TV and cell phone off. 2) Secondly, remember, as I have said, that fun is not the key to happiness. Strive always to put Christ at the center of your life, by avoiding sin and trying to live according to His will. And 3) thirdly, pray at home every day, even if only very briefly &#8211; a few short prayers. If you make prayer a part of your lifestyle, then what you do in church on Sunday morning will no longer be so foreign, but will rather become the natural fulfilment of your private prayer life, and as such, will become far more meaningful; you will even begin to look forward to it.</font></font></font></font><br />
 <br />
<font size="3"><font face="Times New Roman"><font size="3"><font face="Times New Roman">These things involve a change in lifestyle, and that is never easy, but it is necessary, if we want joy, peace, and fulfilment, in this life and in the next. The ancient Pythagoreans had a saying, and I will leave you with it: &#8220;Choose the best way of life, and habit will make it sweet.&#8221;</font></font></font></font></div><font size="3"><font face="Times New Roman"><br />
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<div align="left"><font face="Times New Roman"><font size="3">Forgive me...</font></font></div></div>

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			<category domain="http://www.christianforums.com/f80/">General Theology</category>
			<dc:creator>OrthodoxyUSA</dc:creator>
			<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.christianforums.com/t7419124/</guid>
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			<title>The Doctrine of Hell</title>
			<link>http://www.christianforums.com/t7419092/</link>
			<pubDate>Fri, 20 Nov 2009 14:54:26 GMT</pubDate>
			<description><![CDATA[I have read from many that the doctrine of hell portrays God as a cruel and barbaric God. Many see this doctrine as God torturing many for eternity. I will posit that this is not the case. Unbelievers in general have questioned both hell's existence and justice and even some flavors of Christians...]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<div>I have read from many that the doctrine of hell portrays God as a cruel and barbaric God. Many see this doctrine as God torturing many for eternity. I will posit that this is not the case. Unbelievers in general have questioned both hell's existence and justice and even some flavors of Christians have done the same. However, mainstream orthodox Christians have defended the reality and equity of hell. We see this both historically and biblically. <br />
<br />
Now, a good many believe in the Dante's version of hell and ignore the biblical version. I wrote the below for a sweet, dear member that needed to hear the difference.<br />
<br />
Scripture never describes hell as a torture chamber where people are forced against their will to undergo agonizing pain. This rendition was actually created by unbelievers to paint God as cruel and perpetuated by legalists and zealots. That a loving God will not torture anyone does not mean that hell is not a place of torment. Jesus said that it is (Luke 16:24), however, unlike torture, which is inflicted against one's will, torment is self inflicted by one's own will. <br />
 <br />
We can be condemn by our own freedom. Torment is living with the consequences of our own bad choices. Torment is the anguish that results from realizing we used our freedom for evil and chose wrongly. Everyone in hell will know that the pain he/she suffers is self-induced, hence, the 'weeping and the gnashing of teeth&quot; (Matt 22:13). <br />
 <br />
Hell is also described as a place of eternal fire. The fire is real, but not necessarily physical (at least not as we understand the word) because people in hell will have imperishable physical bodies (John 5:28-29), so normal fire will not affect them. Also, the figures of speech that describe hell are contradictory if taken in a strict physical sense. For example, hell has flames and yet it is outer darkness. Hell is a dump (with a bottom) and yet is a bottomless pit. Everything in the bible is literally true but not everything is true literally.<br />
<br />
Ok, lets discuss this with the love of Christ and the charity that He commands us.</div>

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			<category domain="http://www.christianforums.com/f80/">General Theology</category>
			<dc:creator>Hentenza</dc:creator>
			<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.christianforums.com/t7419092/</guid>
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			<title>Just something to think about, maybe?</title>
			<link>http://www.christianforums.com/t7419078/</link>
			<pubDate>Fri, 20 Nov 2009 13:46:31 GMT</pubDate>
			<description><![CDATA[Saw this the other day and thought I'd post it.
 
Image: http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h237/paule17/Aerails/a11.jpg]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<div><font size="3">Saw this the other day and thought I'd post it.</font><br />
 <br />
<img src="http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h237/paule17/Aerails/a11.jpg" border="0" alt="" /></div>

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			<category domain="http://www.christianforums.com/f80/">General Theology</category>
			<dc:creator>nephilimiyr</dc:creator>
			<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.christianforums.com/t7419078/</guid>
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			<title>Self-Love or Self-Hate</title>
			<link>http://www.christianforums.com/t7419023/</link>
			<pubDate>Fri, 20 Nov 2009 05:10:05 GMT</pubDate>
			<description><![CDATA[This question of self-love or self-hate has been on my mind lately and a search didn't yield any result.  Here is my position on this issue.  Without going into details, I believe as a non-believer, there must be a deep penetrating self hatred of their personal condition before God as a wretched...]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<div>This question of self-love or self-hate has been on my mind lately and a search didn't yield any result.  Here is my position on this issue.  Without going into details, I believe as a non-believer, there must be a deep penetrating self hatred of their personal condition before God as a wretched sinner, thereby convicted of their sinfulness, leading to Christ.  And even as a believer, there is still that sense of deep remorse and hatred of the sinfulness of the flesh that we're living in.  As Paul put it &quot;who will rescue me from this body of death.&quot;<br />
<br />
I believe apart from Christ, unrepentant, there is nothing in me to love.  And even in a repentant saving relationship with Christ, my only use is if I am being used by God.  I am deeply cogitating on this issue and it would seem that it would be biblical to love everything about me that is new in Christ.  I have some more to say on this issue but i'd like to know your thoughts on this as well.<br />
<br />
Here's Martin Luther take on this and I would agree.<br />
<br />
<font color="Green">&quot;True sorrow must spring from the goodness and mercies of God, especially from the wounds of Christ, so that man comes first of all to a sense of his own ingratitude in view of divine goodness and thereupon to hatred of himself and love of the kindness of God. Then tears will flow and he will hate himself from the very depths of his heart, yet without despair. Then he will hate sin, not because of the punishment but because of his regard for the goodness of God; and when he has perceived this he will be preserved from despair and will despise himself most ardently, yet joyfully&quot;</font></div>

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			<category domain="http://www.christianforums.com/f80/">General Theology</category>
			<dc:creator>sungaunga</dc:creator>
			<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.christianforums.com/t7419023/</guid>
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			<title>Can man claim he has saved someone?</title>
			<link>http://www.christianforums.com/t7418878/</link>
			<pubDate>Thu, 19 Nov 2009 20:13:14 GMT</pubDate>
			<description><![CDATA[Years ago, I was used to hearing ministers claim they brought Barbra or Sammy to Christ tonight and they helped gain many people to the Lord, but increasingly some ministers now claim that they saved 'X' amount of souls. I've even heard one minister say that 'they owe their souls to me'.
 
Is this...]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<div>Years ago, I was used to hearing ministers claim they brought Barbra or Sammy to Christ tonight and they helped gain many people to the Lord, but increasingly some ministers now claim that they saved 'X' amount of souls. I've even heard one minister say that 'they owe their souls to me'.<br />
 <br />
Is this happening all over the world or just in N.Ireland? <br />
 <br />
is the Gospel meaning of the word 'saved' under threat nowadays?</div>

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			<category domain="http://www.christianforums.com/f80/">General Theology</category>
			<dc:creator>Tyndale</dc:creator>
			<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.christianforums.com/t7418878/</guid>
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			<title>Inspirational Movies</title>
			<link>http://www.christianforums.com/t7418855/</link>
			<pubDate>Thu, 19 Nov 2009 19:25:07 GMT</pubDate>
			<description>I thought it would be nice to share inspirational (through a religous/spiritual message about God) movies you enjoyed.  
 
Here are a couple off the top of my head that I really enjoyed:
 
*Ostrov (The Island)* - a Russian movie about a fool for Christ.
 
*Henry Poole is Here* - A man is dying and...</description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<div>I thought it would be nice to share inspirational (through a religous/spiritual message about God) movies you enjoyed.  <br />
 <br />
Here are a couple off the top of my head that I really enjoyed:<br />
 <br />
<b>Ostrov (The Island)</b> - a Russian movie about a fool for Christ.<br />
 <br />
<b>Henry Poole is Here</b> - A man is dying and moves back to his original neighborhood, but not original house he grew up in.  His religious neighbor sees a picture of Christ on the side of his stucco house. Interesting movie.  The faith of the neighbors help to bring this man some faith.</div>

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			<category domain="http://www.christianforums.com/f80/">General Theology</category>
			<dc:creator>Dorothea</dc:creator>
			<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.christianforums.com/t7418855/</guid>
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			<title><![CDATA[Jews had oracles of sacrifice/Christians oracles of Body, why aren't they taught?]]></title>
			<link>http://www.christianforums.com/t7418833/</link>
			<pubDate>Thu, 19 Nov 2009 17:32:50 GMT</pubDate>
			<description><![CDATA[The jews were given the sacrifices to explain the coming Messiah. Christians explain Christ thru the marraige of the lamb in the mystery of Christ and the church. Are those the separate jobs of gentile vs messianic jews or is it the job of both? And why isn't either one being taught in the churches...]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<div><font face="Book Antiqua"><font size="3"><font color="#483d8b">The jews were given the sacrifices to explain the coming Messiah. Christians explain Christ thru the marraige of the lamb in the mystery of Christ and the church. Are those the separate jobs of gentile vs messianic jews or is it the job of both? And why isn't either one being taught in the churches or are they? </font></font></font><br />
 <br />
<font face="Book Antiqua"><font size="3"><font color="#483d8b">Eph 3:<font color="#000000"><b><font size="2">9</font></b>And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: </font><br />
<br />
 <b><font size="2">10</font></b>To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places <b><i><u>might be known by the church</u></i></b> the manifold wisdom of God,  <b><font size="2">11</font></b>According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:<br />
</font></font></font></div>

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			<category domain="http://www.christianforums.com/f80/">General Theology</category>
			<dc:creator>Evangelica</dc:creator>
			<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.christianforums.com/t7418833/</guid>
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			<title>Christian Zionism</title>
			<link>http://www.christianforums.com/t7418823/</link>
			<pubDate>Thu, 19 Nov 2009 17:05:48 GMT</pubDate>
			<description>Whatever happened to the thread on Christian Zionism?
 
Simonline.</description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<div>Whatever happened to the thread on Christian Zionism?<br />
 <br />
Simonline.</div>

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			<category domain="http://www.christianforums.com/f80/">General Theology</category>
			<dc:creator>Simonline</dc:creator>
			<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.christianforums.com/t7418823/</guid>
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			<title>Supernatural encounters</title>
			<link>http://www.christianforums.com/t7418798/</link>
			<pubDate>Thu, 19 Nov 2009 15:27:08 GMT</pubDate>
			<description><![CDATA[Any of you have any supernatural encounter stories you'd like to share?  (some of you clever folks will say "every day when I pray to God"!  I don't mean like that, I mean like you saw an apparition, an angel, a demon, poltergeist, objects moving, a miracle, etc...)]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<div>Any of you have any supernatural encounter stories you'd like to share?  (some of you clever folks will say &quot;every day when I pray to God&quot;!  I don't mean like that, I mean like you saw an apparition, an angel, a demon, poltergeist, objects moving, a miracle, etc...)</div>

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			<category domain="http://www.christianforums.com/f80/">General Theology</category>
			<dc:creator>MrPolo</dc:creator>
			<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.christianforums.com/t7418798/</guid>
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			<title>The Kingdom of God</title>
			<link>http://www.christianforums.com/t7418749/</link>
			<pubDate>Thu, 19 Nov 2009 10:22:13 GMT</pubDate>
			<description><![CDATA[The Kingdom of God is all of Creation... and how to place this first in one's own life is truly something already in instinct, and natural... but to know just truly how to help God's Kingdom, you have to start somewhere and forever try as good as you can to make it better for everything...
amen.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<div>The Kingdom of God is all of Creation... and how to place this first in one's own life is truly something already in instinct, and natural... but to know just truly how to help God's Kingdom, you have to start somewhere and forever try as good as you can to make it better for everything...<br />
amen.</div>

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			<category domain="http://www.christianforums.com/f80/">General Theology</category>
			<dc:creator>Atha</dc:creator>
			<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.christianforums.com/t7418749/</guid>
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			<title>Setting the captives free</title>
			<link>http://www.christianforums.com/t7418740/</link>
			<pubDate>Thu, 19 Nov 2009 08:44:53 GMT</pubDate>
			<description><![CDATA[was the reason for the Messiah. What does that mean in light of Paul's human heirarchy? Isn't Christ and the church the only freedom that Christ accomplished in fact and not in shadow or patterns?
 
 
 
 
.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<div>was the reason for the Messiah. What does that mean in light of Paul's human heirarchy? Isn't Christ and the church the only freedom that Christ accomplished in fact and not in shadow or patterns?<br />
 <br />
 <br />
 <br />
 <br />
.</div>

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			<category domain="http://www.christianforums.com/f80/">General Theology</category>
			<dc:creator>Evangelica</dc:creator>
			<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.christianforums.com/t7418740/</guid>
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			<title>What ever happened to Abraham?</title>
			<link>http://www.christianforums.com/t7418704/</link>
			<pubDate>Thu, 19 Nov 2009 04:05:14 GMT</pubDate>
			<description>Amen,it is Jewish,to believe in Jesus.He was Jewish,the law and prophets spoke of him,through ,symbols,festivals,prophecies etc.Paul,Peter and all the rest of our brothers were Jewish.

But all along,there was also a separation from the Gentiles.Peter said he could not associate with people from...</description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<div>Amen,it is Jewish,to believe in Jesus.He was Jewish,the law and prophets spoke of him,through ,symbols,festivals,prophecies etc.Paul,Peter and all the rest of our brothers were Jewish.<br />
<br />
But all along,there was also a separation from the Gentiles.Peter said he could not associate with people from other nations,prior to the sheet vision in Acts 10.To partake of Passover,a Gentile had to be circumcised.The court of the Gentiles was were we were kept,and stoned if we went into the temple.Jews could not marry Gentiles,etc.<br />
<br />
Ok.Where am I headed?<br />
<br />
Isn’t the obvious answer that what Paul said makes the most sense?<br />
<br />
Instead of barriers,we should go pre-circumcision,to the time of Abraham.That is what is also being said  in Ephesians two.The laws that created the enmity,have been abolished,so we can be one,in the spirit,and now be a spiritual temple,like Peter also said in 1 Peter 2.<br />
<br />
We are BOTH supposed to all be a people of faith,children of Abraham,not law,or natural principles.<br />
<br />
New Living Translation (NLT)<br />
<br />
Romans 9:6-9 6 Well then, has God failed to fulfill his promise to Israel? No, for not all who are born into the nation of Israel are truly members of God’s people! 7 Being descendants of Abraham doesn’t make them truly Abraham’s children. For the Scriptures say, “Isaac is the son through whom your descendants will be counted,” though Abraham had other children, too. 8 This means that Abraham’s physical descendants are not necessarily children of God.<u> <font color="Red">Only</font> the children of the promise are considered to be Abraham’s </u><u>children.</u><br />
<br />
What I am trying to say is that we cant be two people of God with two plans.Pentecost created the bond of the Spirit.No more Jew or Gentile,one fold,with one shepherd.(John 10)<br />
<br />
Both groups are to walk the way Abraham did,before he was circumcised.That is where we will be one,not under laws that divide.<br />
<br />
<br />
Romans 4:12 and to make him the father of the circumcised who are not merely circumcised but who also walk in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had <b>before he was circumcised.</b><br />
<br />
Now we are talking unity!</div>

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			<category domain="http://www.christianforums.com/f80/">General Theology</category>
			<dc:creator>Frogster</dc:creator>
			<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.christianforums.com/t7418704/</guid>
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			<title>Nativity scenes?</title>
			<link>http://www.christianforums.com/t7418691/</link>
			<pubDate>Thu, 19 Nov 2009 03:12:20 GMT</pubDate>
			<description><![CDATA[Some say that statues/pictures/medals of saints and crucifixes are idols and/or graven images, but what about nativity scenes??? Wouldn't they fit this description as well? :confused: If so, why do some Christians who hold this belief about idols/graven images also have nativity scenes? :scratch:]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<div><font face="Arial Narrow"><font size="4"><font color="navy">Some say that statues/pictures/medals of saints and crucifixes are idols and/or graven images, but what about nativity scenes??? Wouldn't they fit this description as well? :confused: If so, why do some Christians who hold this belief about idols/graven images also have nativity scenes? :scratch:</font></font></font></div>

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			<category domain="http://www.christianforums.com/f80/">General Theology</category>
			<dc:creator>Catholic Wife</dc:creator>
			<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.christianforums.com/t7418691/</guid>
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			<title>Theology on Tap</title>
			<link>http://www.christianforums.com/t7418662/</link>
			<pubDate>Wed, 18 Nov 2009 23:52:27 GMT</pubDate>
			<description><![CDATA[This seems to be growing in popularity with some Episcopalian Church's in the Boston area and in some Catholic Church's.
 
For those who don't know what it is. Theology on Tap is a night set aside, once a week, once a month or whenever. Where members of your church meet up in a pub do discuss...]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<div>This seems to be growing in popularity with some Episcopalian Church's in the Boston area and in some Catholic Church's.<br />
 <br />
For those who don't know what it is. Theology on Tap is a night set aside, once a week, once a month or whenever. Where members of your church meet up in a pub do discuss theology over some drinks and food. <br />
 <br />
I think it's a great way to get that much need young, 25 to 35 age range in and to me it reminds of how J.R.R. Tolkien and C.S. Lewis would meet up for some pints to talk religion among other things. <br />
 <br />
What are your thoughts on it? Do you yourself belong to one? I only work in downtown Boston and take the train back down to the suburbs so I can't do it there and none around here do them. Wish they did<br />
 <br />
but what is everyone's thoughts on this. <br />
 <br />
I like it.</div>

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			<category domain="http://www.christianforums.com/f80/">General Theology</category>
			<dc:creator>boswd</dc:creator>
			<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.christianforums.com/t7418662/</guid>
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			<title>Visual Aids in Churches or Sunday Schools</title>
			<link>http://www.christianforums.com/t7418623/</link>
			<pubDate>Wed, 18 Nov 2009 21:21:35 GMT</pubDate>
			<description><![CDATA[I'm interested in what visual aids and/or multimedia is used in your Church or Sunday School - or a church you have visited. And your opinions of such things. For example, in an evangelical church I recently visited, the words to the songs were projected on a screen and hymnals were not used. Also...]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<div>I'm interested in what visual aids and/or multimedia is used in your Church or Sunday School - or a church you have visited. And your opinions of such things. For example, in an evangelical church I recently visited, the words to the songs were projected on a screen and hymnals were not used. Also the pastor used a powerpoint presentation to supplement his sermon. In the Sunday School, a dry erase board was used for prayer requests and also for some of the lesson.<br />
<br />
A friend of mine teaching Sunday school still uses transparencies on an overhead projector, but he is the only one I know. It seems some 10+ years ago overhead projectors were common, and now they have declined in popularity. Many - including myself - now use powerpoint presentations for teaching, especially adults. My wife still teaches children's Sunday school the same way that she has been teaching for years, without multimedia - even without a flannel board. ;) <br />
<br />
<br />
LDG</div>

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