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		<title><![CDATA[Christian Forums - Creation & Evolution]]></title>
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		<description>Forum for the discussion of this important topic. This forum is open to non-believers. There is a Christians-only forum in the Christians-only section too.</description>
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			<title><![CDATA[Christian Forums - Creation & Evolution]]></title>
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			<title>Birth of New Species Witnessed by Scientists</title>
			<link>http://www.christianforums.com/t7419042/</link>
			<pubDate>Fri, 20 Nov 2009 07:05:30 GMT</pubDate>
			<description><![CDATA[This is an article from wired dot com. I cannot post links, but searching "speciation-in-action" should bring up the original article.


---Quote (Originally by wired.com)---
On one of the Galapagos islands whose finches shaped the theories of a young Charles Darwin, biologists have witnessed that...]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<div>This is an article from wired dot com. I cannot post links, but searching &quot;speciation-in-action&quot; should bring up the original article.<br />
<br />
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					Originally Posted by <strong>wired.com</strong>
					
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				<div style="font-style:italic">On one of the Galapagos islands whose finches shaped the theories of a young Charles Darwin, biologists have witnessed that elusive moment when a single species splits in two.<br />
 In many ways, the split followed predictable patterns, requiring a hybrid newcomer who’d already taken baby steps down a new evolutionary path. But playing an unexpected part was chance, and the newcomer singing his own special song.<br />
 This miniature evolutionary saga is described in a paper published Monday in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences. It’s authored by Peter and Rosemary Grant, a husband-and-wife team who have spent much of the last 36 years studying a group of bird species known collectively as Darwin’s finches.<br />
 The finches — or, technically, tanagers — have adapted to the conditions of each island in the Galapagos, and they provided Darwin with a clear snapshot of evolutionary divergence when he sailed there on the HMS Beagle. The Grants have pushed that work further, with decades of painstaking observations providing a real-time record of evolution in action. In the PNAS paper, they describe something Darwin could only have dreamed of watching: the birth of a new species.<br />
 The species’ forefather was a medium ground finch, or <i>Geospiza fortis</i>, who flew from a neighboring island to the Grants’ island of Daphne Major, and into their nets, in 1981. He “was unusually large, especially in beak width, sang an unusual song” and had a few gene variants that could be traced to another finch species, they wrote. This exotic stranger soon found a mate, who also happened to have a few hybrid genes. The happy couple had five sons.<br />
 In the tradition of finches, for whom songs are passed from father to son and used to serenade potential mates, the sons learned their immigrant father’s tunes. But their father’s vocalizations were strange: he’d tried to mimick the natives, but accidentally introduced new notes and inflections, like a person who learns a song in a language he doesn’t understand.<br />
 These tunes set the sons apart, as did their unusual size. Though they found mates, it may only have taken a couple generations for the new lineage to ignore — or be ignored by — local finches, and breed only with each other. The Grants couldn’t tell for certain when this started, but they were certain after four generations, when a drought struck the island, killing all but a single brother and sister. They mated with each other, and their children did the same.<br />
 No exact rule exists for deciding when a group of animals constitutes a separate species. That question “is rarely if ever asked,” as speciation isn’t something that scientists have been fortunate enough to watch at the precise moment of divergence, except in bacteria and other simple creatures. But after at least three generations of reproductive isolation, the Grants felt comfortable in designating the new lineage as an incipient species.<br />
 The future of the species is far from certain. It’s possible that they’ll be out-competed by other finches on the island. Their initial gene pool may contain flaws that will be magnified with time. A chance disaster could wipe them out. The birds might even return to the fold of their parent species, and merge with them through interbreeding.<br />
 But whatever happens, their legacy will remain: New species can emerge very quickly — and sometimes all it takes is a song.</div>
			
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</div>Please note - I don't have any further information about the science on the article - I study sociology, not biology.</div>

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			<category domain="http://www.christianforums.com/f70/"><![CDATA[Creation & Evolution]]></category>
			<dc:creator>BasinBrat</dc:creator>
			<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.christianforums.com/t7419042/</guid>
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			<title>Evolution and Christianity</title>
			<link>http://www.christianforums.com/t7418607/</link>
			<pubDate>Wed, 18 Nov 2009 20:26:37 GMT</pubDate>
			<description><![CDATA[I have wondered for some time how many Christians are actually YECs. Here's a poll to that effect.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<div>I have wondered for some time how many Christians are actually YECs. Here's a poll to that effect.</div>

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			<category domain="http://www.christianforums.com/f70/"><![CDATA[Creation & Evolution]]></category>
			<dc:creator>faith guardian</dc:creator>
			<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.christianforums.com/t7418607/</guid>
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			<title>Answering questions on Evolution</title>
			<link>http://www.christianforums.com/t7418362/</link>
			<pubDate>Tue, 17 Nov 2009 20:00:48 GMT</pubDate>
			<description>This thread is for honest questions about evolution. 
 
The simplest definition for evolution I can think of:
 
Theory of Evolution: allele frequency change over generational time that can result in physical changes in structure and/or changes in behavior that leads to speciation.
 
The Big Bang...</description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<div>This thread is for honest questions about evolution. <br />
 <br />
The simplest definition for evolution I can think of:<br />
 <br />
Theory of Evolution: allele frequency change over generational time that can result in physical changes in structure and/or changes in behavior that leads to speciation.<br />
 <br />
The Big Bang Theory and abiogenesis are not covered by evolution. <br />
 <br />
So creationists, this is your chance to ask a serious question. Even if it is a PRATT I will still attempt to answer it to the best of my ability. As long as you will attempt to learn from what I tell you, I will answer honestly. Again, this is for creationists who want to actually learn something.  Any lurkers should feel free to ask as well...</div>

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			<category domain="http://www.christianforums.com/f70/"><![CDATA[Creation & Evolution]]></category>
			<dc:creator>BananaSlug</dc:creator>
			<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.christianforums.com/t7418362/</guid>
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			<title>Taking Questions on Young Earth Creationism</title>
			<link>http://www.christianforums.com/t7418079/</link>
			<pubDate>Mon, 16 Nov 2009 20:35:06 GMT</pubDate>
			<description>Young Earth Creationism is defined as a literal six day creation, as described in Genesis one (KJV), occurring about 6,100 years ago, by an omnipotent supernatural being.
 
I will answer all questions to the best of my ability, as I see them.
 
Fire away!</description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<div>Young Earth Creationism is defined as a literal six day creation, as described in Genesis one (KJV), occurring about 6,100 years ago, by an omnipotent supernatural being.<br />
 <br />
I will answer all questions to the best of my ability, as I see them.<br />
 <br />
Fire away!</div>

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			<category domain="http://www.christianforums.com/f70/"><![CDATA[Creation & Evolution]]></category>
			<dc:creator>LifeToTheFullest!</dc:creator>
			<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.christianforums.com/t7418079/</guid>
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			<title>Evolution is a Fact</title>
			<link>http://www.christianforums.com/t7417926/</link>
			<pubDate>Mon, 16 Nov 2009 04:22:17 GMT</pubDate>
			<description><![CDATA[The Theory of Gravity.
Atomic Theory.
Germ Theory.

These are all theories, as well as facts.

Anyone who says that "evolution is just a theory" doesn't understand what a theory is.

To quote AronRa,]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<div>The Theory of Gravity.<br />
Atomic Theory.<br />
Germ Theory.<br />
<br />
These are all theories, as well as facts.<br />
<br />
Anyone who says that &quot;evolution is just a theory&quot; doesn't understand what a theory is.<br />
<br />
To quote AronRa,<br />
<br />
 <br />
It is a fact that evolution happens; that  biodiversity and complexity does increase, that both occur naturally only by evolutionary means.  <br />
<br />
It is a fact that alleles vary with increasing distinction in reproductive populations and that these are accelerated in genetically isolated groups.  <br />
<br />
It is a fact that natural selection, sexual selection, and genetic drift have all been proven to have predictable effect in guiding this variance.  <br />
<br />
It is a fact that significant beneficial mutations do occur and are inherited by descendant groups, and that multiple independent sets of biological markers exist to trace these lineages backwards over many generations.  <br />
<br />
It is a fact that birds are a subset of dinosaurs the same way humans are a subset of apes, primates, eutherian mammals, and vertebrate deuterostome animals.  <br />
<br />
It is a fact that the collective genome of all animals has been traced to its most basal form, and that those forms are also indicated by comparative morphology, physiology, and embryological development.  <br />
<br />
It is a fact that everything on earth has definite relatives either living nearby or evident in the fossil record.  <br />
<br />
It is a fact that the fossil record holds hundreds of definitely transitional species even according to it&#8217;s strictest definition, and that both microevolution and macroevolution have been directly-observed.  <br />
<br />
Evolution is a fact.</div>

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			<category domain="http://www.christianforums.com/f70/"><![CDATA[Creation & Evolution]]></category>
			<dc:creator>Aberinkula</dc:creator>
			<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.christianforums.com/t7417926/</guid>
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			<title>Is creationism nothing more than an opinion.</title>
			<link>http://www.christianforums.com/t7417529/</link>
			<pubDate>Sat, 14 Nov 2009 06:29:14 GMT</pubDate>
			<description>Like, I believe deserts are always beautiful, or, I believe my God created the universe, both are nothing more than opinions.</description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<div>Like, I believe deserts are always beautiful, or, I believe my God created the universe, both are nothing more than opinions.</div>

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			<category domain="http://www.christianforums.com/f70/"><![CDATA[Creation & Evolution]]></category>
			<dc:creator>hangback</dc:creator>
			<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.christianforums.com/t7417529/</guid>
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			<title>Light relief - evolution in three words</title>
			<link>http://www.christianforums.com/t7417322/</link>
			<pubDate>Fri, 13 Nov 2009 13:36:11 GMT</pubDate>
			<description><![CDATA[I've made a small collection of creationist short hand descriptions of evolution, (or should that be insults?) All were taken from YECist publications.  Interestingly, there is common theme with every one having man as the final evolutionary product.  We know that anthropocentrism is at the heart...]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<div>I've made a small collection of creationist short hand descriptions of evolution, (or should that be insults?) All were taken from YECist publications.  Interestingly, there is common theme with every one having man as the final evolutionary product.  We know that anthropocentrism is at the heart of creationism, so don't be surprised by that.  Naturally, we don't see &quot;dust to man&quot; (a bit too close to the bone, perhaps).<br />
<br />
A second theme is abiogenesis, implied by words like goo, slime and particles.  Of course evilushionists can't win with this one — just like we can't win with the Big Bang! <br />
<blockquote><br />
moths into motorists<br />
bacteria into biologists<br />
goo to you<br />
molecules to man<br />
microbe to man<br />
microbe to microbiologist <br />
Slime to man<br />
particles to man <br />
monkey to man<br />
ape to man<br />
matter to man<br />
dirt to doctor<br />
bacteria to man<br />
amoeba to man<br />
mud to man<br />
dirt to man<br />
fish to philosopher<br />
fish to fishermen<br />
</blockquote>Can anyone add to this list — only three words are allowed.  Maybe it could be expanded to include three-word descriptions of creationism, but please be polite!</div>

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			<category domain="http://www.christianforums.com/f70/"><![CDATA[Creation & Evolution]]></category>
			<dc:creator>Mike Elphick</dc:creator>
			<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.christianforums.com/t7417322/</guid>
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			<title>Why Evolution is True</title>
			<link>http://www.christianforums.com/t7417298/</link>
			<pubDate>Fri, 13 Nov 2009 07:17:10 GMT</pubDate>
			<description>I have been seeing some raise fossils like Tiktaallik, as support for evolution. I agree, I see no reason why many creatures are not evolved. The only question is whether hyper evolution was in place, meaning the different state, of course as well. If so, creationists need not fear or fight...</description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<div>I have been seeing some raise fossils like Tiktaallik, as support for evolution. I agree, I see no reason why many creatures are not evolved. The only question is whether hyper evolution was in place, meaning the different state, of course as well. If so, creationists need not fear or fight evolution, but embrace it as part of their arguments. That is what I do.<br />
<br />
 So, now all that remains opposed to the bible, is <u>not</u> <i>evolution</i>, but the depths of same state abiogenesis, where they imagine some start for the evolving other than the created kinds of Eden. Created by God, exactly as the bible says.<br />
<br />
 On a related note, I was reading a bit about Malachi Martin, and how he claimed that the occult, and direct Satan worship was rife within the very core and halls of the vatican. <br />
<br />
 That reminded me of how evolution (and from all I can understand, the old fashioned concept of evolution, where old ages, and first lifeforms other than Adam and Eve are involved) has been widely accepted in the church I was raised in. Chilling thought.<br />
<br />
<br />
&quot;The Catholic Church teaches &quot;theistic evolution,&quot; a stand that accepts evolution as a scientific theory and sees no reason why God could not have used a <b>natural evolutionary process in the forming of the human </b>species.&quot;<br />
<a href="http://www.reuters.com/article/scienceNews/idUSLG62672220080916" target="_blank">Evolution fine but no apology to Darwin: Vatican | Science | Reuters</a><br />
<br />
&quot;...<br />
As examples of passages not to be taken literally, the bishops cite the early chapters of Genesis, comparing them with early creation legends from other cultures, especially from the ancient East. The bishops say it is clear that the primary purpose of these chapters was to provide religious teaching and that they could not be described as historical writing. <br />
 Similarly, they refute the apocalyptic prophecies of Revelation, the last book of the Christian Bible&quot;<br />
<a href="http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article574768.ece" target="_blank">Catholic Church no longer swears by truth of the Bible - Times Online</a></div>

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			<category domain="http://www.christianforums.com/f70/"><![CDATA[Creation & Evolution]]></category>
			<dc:creator>dad</dc:creator>
			<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.christianforums.com/t7417298/</guid>
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			<title>Radiometric Dating</title>
			<link>http://www.christianforums.com/t7417283/</link>
			<pubDate>Fri, 13 Nov 2009 05:29:53 GMT</pubDate>
			<description><![CDATA[This is a straw man commonly used as "evidence" against Evolutionary Theory:

The Creationist will triumphantly proclaim that Carbon-14 only has a half-life of several thousand years, or give some anecdotal account of radiocarbon dating being used incorrectly, thereby giving incorrect results, and...]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<div>This is a straw man commonly used as &quot;evidence&quot; against Evolutionary Theory:<br />
<br />
The Creationist will triumphantly proclaim that Carbon-14 only has a half-life of several thousand years, or give some anecdotal account of radiocarbon dating being used incorrectly, thereby giving incorrect results, and trying to claim that it doesn't work.<br />
<br />
<br />
The thing that gets me every time. This is used as if it is some brilliant, irrefutable argument. There are about 6 other isotopes used. I really think this needs its own thread. <b>Not everything is carbon dated.</b> Lucy, for example, was dated using the Potassium-Argon method. <br />
<br />
I'm tired of people talking about how something can't be older then 6,000 years because of the half-life of carbon-14, when radiocarbon dating wasn't the dating method used in the first place.</div>

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			<category domain="http://www.christianforums.com/f70/"><![CDATA[Creation & Evolution]]></category>
			<dc:creator>laconicstudent</dc:creator>
			<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.christianforums.com/t7417283/</guid>
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			<title><![CDATA["No true christian believes in evolution"]]></title>
			<link>http://www.christianforums.com/t7417078/</link>
			<pubDate>Thu, 12 Nov 2009 07:08:38 GMT</pubDate>
			<description><![CDATA[I've been seeing this more and more lately, and upon a recent field trip to the christian only origins section I was appalled to see the sheer number of posts that were spouting this kind of crap. Calling other Christians sinners, heretics, liars, consorting with "vile skeptics".
I thought you guys...]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<div>I've been seeing this more and more lately, and upon a recent field trip to the christian only origins section I was appalled to see the sheer number of posts that were spouting this kind of crap. Calling other Christians sinners, heretics, liars, consorting with &quot;vile skeptics&quot;.<br />
I thought you guys were supposed to be brothers and sisters? I'm tired of seeing this kind of crap, not only because it's a logical fallacy, not only because it's against forum rules, but because all anyone does with this argument is spread hate and discord. You make a separation between you and other people, you divide people even more than they already are (and far, far more than they need to be), and most of all, you just make yourself look like a spiteful bigot to anyone who doesn't happen to share your view.<br />
<br />
So seriously, stop it, it's ticking me off, and I'm sure it's ticking the theistic evolutionists off even more.</div>

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			<category domain="http://www.christianforums.com/f70/"><![CDATA[Creation & Evolution]]></category>
			<dc:creator>Wedjat</dc:creator>
			<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.christianforums.com/t7417078/</guid>
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			<title>Did God Write that Evolution is Wrong?</title>
			<link>http://www.christianforums.com/t7417048/</link>
			<pubDate>Thu, 12 Nov 2009 02:45:29 GMT</pubDate>
			<description><![CDATA[Well, my last poll got axed because is was labeled "Apologetics." I have rewrote it so that it directly concerns evolution. Of course, the question really is, Did God Write the Bible, or did Men write the Bible. However, I'm not allowed to ask that question here.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<div>Well, my last poll got axed because is was labeled &quot;Apologetics.&quot; I have rewrote it so that it directly concerns evolution. Of course, the question really is, Did God Write the Bible, or did Men write the Bible. However, I'm not allowed to ask that question here.</div>

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			<category domain="http://www.christianforums.com/f70/"><![CDATA[Creation & Evolution]]></category>
			<dc:creator>Split Rock</dc:creator>
			<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.christianforums.com/t7417048/</guid>
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			<title><![CDATA[I can't believe ya'll are still here]]></title>
			<link>http://www.christianforums.com/t7416483/</link>
			<pubDate>Tue, 10 Nov 2009 05:01:20 GMT</pubDate>
			<description><![CDATA[So, I don't know if anyone remembers me, but yeah, I was here for a long, LONG time, fought the good fight for a long, LONG time, then went away, came back, found all of ya'll still here, went away from another long, LONG time, and you're all STILL HERE.

How the hoot (sadlfslk language rules) are...]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<div>So, I don't know if anyone remembers me, but yeah, I was here for a long, LONG time, fought the good fight for a long, LONG time, then went away, came back, found all of ya'll still here, went away from another long, LONG time, and you're all STILL HERE.<br />
<br />
How the hoot (sadlfslk language rules) are you? I don't care which side you're on. At this point I'm just surprised that anyone could stomach this fight this long. Well done.<br />
<br />
Though I wonder where Nathan Poe is. I was here when Poe's Law became official.<br />
<br />
Wow. And all of my stuff still works. Wild.<br />
<br />
One last edit before I go to sleep:<br />
<br />
More psychology please. I'm but six months away from having credentials. =)</div>

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			<category domain="http://www.christianforums.com/f70/"><![CDATA[Creation & Evolution]]></category>
			<dc:creator>Bushido216</dc:creator>
			<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.christianforums.com/t7416483/</guid>
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			<title>Evolution in the Deepest River in the World</title>
			<link>http://www.christianforums.com/t7415840/</link>
			<pubDate>Sat, 07 Nov 2009 18:39:21 GMT</pubDate>
			<description><![CDATA[I found this article from Smithsonian.com a very interesting read. The Congo River turns out to be the deepest in the world AND its exceptionally strong currents divides populations of fish providing separate evolutionary environments.
 
Here's the LINK...]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<div>I found this article from Smithsonian.com a very interesting read. The Congo River turns out to be the deepest in the world AND its exceptionally strong currents divides populations of fish providing separate evolutionary environments.<br />
 <br />
Here's the <a href="http://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/Evolution-in-the-Deepest-River-in-the-World.html" target="_blank">LINK</a> to the article. Please read.<br />
 <br />
.</div>

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			<category domain="http://www.christianforums.com/f70/"><![CDATA[Creation & Evolution]]></category>
			<dc:creator>LightSeaker</dc:creator>
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			<title>Taking questions on Embedded Age Creation</title>
			<link>http://www.christianforums.com/t7415712/</link>
			<pubDate>Sat, 07 Nov 2009 04:15:46 GMT</pubDate>
			<description><![CDATA[I'll take questions on Embedded Age Creation:

1. Definition = maturity without history
2. Method = creatio ex nihilo
3. Unique features:
   * requires omnipotence
   * laws of science not in effect
   * occurred BC4004 (according to Ussher's dating)
   * no evidence left behind
   * no scarring]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<div>I'll take questions on Embedded Age Creation:<br />
<ol style="list-style-type: decimal"><li><font size="2">Definition = maturity without history</font></li>
<li><font size="2">Method = creatio ex nihilo</font></li>
<li><font size="2">Unique features:</font><ul><li><font size="2">requires omnipotence</font></li>
<li><font size="2">laws of science not in effect</font></li>
<li><font size="2">occurred BC4004 (according to Ussher's dating)<br />
</font></li>
<li><font size="2">no evidence left behind</font></li>
<li><font size="2">no scarring<br />
</font></li>
<li><font size="2">completed in 6 days (on purpose)</font></li>
</ul></li>
<li><font size="2">Described in detail in Genesis 1</font></li>
<li><font size="2">Witnessed by the angels</font></li>
</ol></div>

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			<category domain="http://www.christianforums.com/f70/"><![CDATA[Creation & Evolution]]></category>
			<dc:creator>AV1611VET</dc:creator>
			<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.christianforums.com/t7415712/</guid>
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			<title>Luca</title>
			<link>http://www.christianforums.com/t7415428/</link>
			<pubDate>Fri, 06 Nov 2009 04:33:00 GMT</pubDate>
			<description>In the C/E=GA thread, Juvenissun issued a response to whether the creation evolution debate could even be considered a discussion.


---Quote---
For example, we can discuss that plants were created before animals. There could be tons and tons of scientific discussions on this issue. It is much much...</description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<div>In the C/E=GA thread, Juvenissun issued a response to whether the creation evolution debate could even be considered a discussion.<br />
<br />
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				For example, we can discuss that plants were created before animals. There could be tons and tons of scientific discussions on this issue. It is much much MORE than just a faith.
			
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</div>So lets do that.<br />
 <br />
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				Hey, evolutionists.
			
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</div>Hey!<br />
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				 Have interest in talking about it? I am not a biologist nor a paleontologist. So, there is no need to be afraid of me. But I think I can beat most, if not all of you, on this issue.
			
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</div>Well I'm not a biologist either, but I consider myself to be rather well informed in the subject, so best of luck.<br />
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				First, there is no common ancestor for animal cell and plant cell. Right?
			
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</div>Wrong.<br />
This common ancestor is known as LUCA, standing for &quot;Last Universal Common Ancestor&quot;, and could refer to either a single cell or a population of cells (or more likely protocells) that gave rise to every other living species on the planet. This includes Eukaryota (encompassing both plant and animal cells), Bacteria, and Archaea.  Genes from every existing life form on Earth suggest a common ancestor. In fact, a quick Google search reveals an <a href="http://www.actionbioscience.org/newfrontiers/poolearticle.html" target="_blank">article</a> that explains how scientists are attempting to reconstruct what LUCA would be like, as well as a link to the origional <a href="http://www.actionbioscience.org/newfrontiers/poolepaper.html" target="_blank">paper</a>.<br />
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				There is no need to argue about this question. Just say &quot;right !&quot;
			
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</div>Nope, 'cause you're not.<br />
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				 (some of you may even say that this is an irrelevant question to evolution, I think that is a cowardly answer.).
			
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</div>Asking about a universal common ancestor is not an irrelevant question to evolution, asking about where that ancestor came from is, then we need to talk about abiogenesis, which is certainly an option.<br />
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				 Then I have more interesting topics for you after this.
			
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</div>Well that might take a little while, but don't forget about it, we'll get to it right after we clear up the origional topic.<br />
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				Sigh, I can feel already that there are not many of you qualified for this discussion.
			
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</div>Sigh, so I guess no one should discuss it then.<br />
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				 Some of you can only yell: Evidence ! Evidence !
			
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</div>Well, us loony evolutionists do like our reality based in facts.</div>

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