Christian Forums - Exploring Christianity http://www.christianforums.com A Forum for Non Christians to explore Christianity with Christians. en Sun, 22 Nov 2009 18:27:42 GMT vBulletin 60 http://www.christianforums.com/style/misc/rss.jpg Christian Forums - Exploring Christianity http://www.christianforums.com pro-life but no protection? http://www.christianforums.com/t7419232/ Sat, 21 Nov 2009 01:47:01 GMT Recently i recieved a ticket to come to a christian (southern baptist) seminar about the HIV/AIDS epidemic in Africa. the person said that they were going on a mission trip there to help with doctoring and other needs of Africans with HIV/AIDS. I said something along the lines of "oh so you guys will be providing them with free condoms and birth control ect." and the lady looked at me like i was crazy. she said that they would be promoting abstinence only and nothing else. i then told her to keep her ticket and give it to someone who would actually support that position.

this seems to be a common trend in many sects of Christianity. My question is this, if a person does not want children or disease, and there is a way to help prevent a person from having children disease, and we know that some people will have sex regardless of education, then why would a person not do everything in their power to try to keep that person as safe as possible?

these ideas seem in direct conflict with another, and as far as i know there is nothing specific in the bible about abortion (the practice didnt exist in any practical form back then).

DISCLAIMER: i understand that many, or even most christians do not hold these opposing view points, but it is rather stereotypically held by christians from influence by the pope and others who do hold this viewpoint. this question is addressed to people who do hold these opposing viewpoints.

EDIT: i just saw that RP has a thread up that is similar to this one is question entitled "young people and sex" however, i do think that this is a different enough question to stay up. if any others do not however, or if RP feels like i am hijacking her thread, then i will be happy to remove it at their request ]]> Exploring Christianity kidsagainstkows http://www.christianforums.com/t7419232/ Capitalism and Socialism http://www.christianforums.com/t7418946/ Fri, 20 Nov 2009 00:12:52 GMT *_The Great Money Con_* 1. Man 1 begins with money (50) He builds a factory (30) (it does not matter where he gets the money from at the moment.) 2. Men 2, 3, 4, and 5 are poor. Man 1 employs them each (5.) Each of 2, 3, 4, and 5 make 5 products. Man 1 owns them (20) 3. Man 1... The Great Money Con

1. Man 1 begins with money (50) He builds a factory (30) (it does not matter where he gets the money from at the moment.)
2. Men 2, 3, 4, and 5 are poor. Man 1 employs them each (5.) Each of 2, 3, 4, and 5 make 5 products. Man 1 owns them (20)
3. Man 1 sells products for (2) each. Men 2, 3, 4 and 5 need at least one of these products. Men 6,7,8,9, 10… are workers from other factories. They also buy the products that man 1 sells.
4. With his rise in money (80) Man 1 can employ more workers, and consequently gain more products, and sell them in turn for more money. The small amount it takes for daily sustenance (3) keeps the workers in poverty, yet to Man 1 is negligible. The rich man can buy better quality products for more money (4)
5. Eventually, inbuilt obsolesce causes the poorer quality products to break. The better quality products do not do so (think on Tesco value products –vs- ordinary products). Men 2, 3, 4 and 5 are forced to take out loans, in order to buy new products.
6. When Man 1 has sufficient funds he can buy machines that permanently replace the workers (Tesco’s new checkouts.) Clearly these machines need no salary. Man 1 can make several workers redundant.
7. Man 1 can also move to a third world country where he is free to make his new workers work for an even lower wage.
8. Remaining workers are forced to work extra hours, in order to pay off their loan and not get sacked.
9. Most of Men 2, 3, 4, and 5 are unable to pay off their loans due to interest. They are now forced to work or go to prison/ live in utter poverty. Man 1’s wealth can only increase due to interest in the bank.
10. Sacked workers still have to provide for their family (3) and can’t get products because they have no income. State will only give them just about enough to survive (3)
11. Man 1 dies and passes on his fortune to children. Men 2,3,4 and 5 die and pass nothing on to children
12. See point 1
The person who began with money did NO work, and ended up with both a fortune, and many good quality products. With his fortune, he is free to go on many holidays, experience many new things, in other words he can live life.
The person who began with virtually nothing ends up in much the same way, yet has been forced to work for their entire life. He has not been able to live even close to a good life.
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The Defence of Capitalism.
Although it will hopefully be clear to most that this system is wrong, some will attempt to defend it with weak arguments and terms intended to baffle. A list of the most common arguments are listed here
1. The economy is not zero-sum.
2. If you work hard, you can reach “the top.”
3. Inheriting money is not the only way to get rich. (Similar to 2.)
4. Sadly there is no better system. We are selfish by our nature.
5. It is the way things have been, and always will be – no one wants to change.
6. The rich man helps out the poor man by giving him wages. He does not exploit.
7. Capitalism allows you the freedom to sell your labour.
1. The economy is not zero-sum.
Zero sum means as one person gains, another directly loses. When someone states that the economy is not zero sum, they mean that When a rich man increases his wealth – poor people do not do so as well.
REBUTTAL: The great money con clearly shows that indirectly the Rich mans gains DOES negatively affect the poor. The Sum may not be zero, but when the richest 2% of the world’s population own more than half the wealth of the world (Helsinki-based World Institute for Development Economics Research of the United Nations University) It definitely has a negative impact on the bottom echelons of society.

2 If you work hard, you can reach “the top.”
Clearly this is rubbish. The workers in The Great Money Con (TGMC) work their entire life and get nowhere.

3. Inheriting money is not the only way to get rich. ANYONE can work hard at school and get rich.
Before rebutting this point it is necessary to add that in the majority of cases inheriting money / family financial aid generally plays a major part in becoming rich. You only have to look at Sam Walton’s (owner of Wal-mart in America) children, who are set to receive 5 or 6 BILLION dollars between them. What work have they done? Anyway…
Sadly there are not equal opportunities in Capitalism. Rich people can afford to send their children to the best schools, while poor people would struggle to pay the fees. In poorer communities drug and crime cultures are rife. Furthermore frequently family problems occur due to lack of money (workers come home sick of working every day and life not improving – don’t have time for their kids.)
In addition to these arguments – some people are naturally not as intelligent as others, and will never be able to succeed. The question also has to be asked – Why does a small amount of work early on in life in the field of education vastly outweigh a lifetime of hard manual work? However these small arguments in themselves disprove the point, they are not the most important message:
It is physically impossible for everyone to “reach the top.” There always has to be a majority of people who have to be exploited for those at the top to maintain the lifestyle they do. The happiness of the majority is forfeit for that of a few. This moral flaw is INBUILT into Capitalism – within this system it cannot be changed.
4. There is no better system. We are selfish by nature.
My next chapter deals fully with better systems and “selfish human nature.” However a quick rebuttal with reference to our selfish nature: People believed until very recently that blacks were inferior, and that the white man was by his nature dominant. The change
5. This system always has been and always will be. No one wants to change
Capitalism has been around for a relatively short time. Feudalism came before that, Slave holding societies came before that. Each change in System kept aspects of the old one, yet all had a totally new aspect. Capitalism almost certainly won’t be around forever, if you look at historical trends.
As to no one wanting to change – indeed now they may not. However again history shows that capitalism digs its own grave. There generally comes a point where a great depression occurs – when capitalism over consumes and the people at the top get too greedy, and cause the collapse of the system. Throughout history every time something like this happens, after the worst of the depression hits, people begin listening to other views as they begin to realise the system does not work.
Present events in relation to the “economic crisis” are a clear example of that. Sadly Nick Griffin’s fascist supporters have grown vastly in number.
6. Rich men don’t exploit the poor but help them by giving them their wages necessary for survival.
1. Rich men need living workers for their own gain. Were you asleep during the Great Money Con?
2. Money is a representation of Labour. Each worker in TGMC gets only (5) for work which was worth (10). The employer DOES exploit his workers: Their poorness is preyed upon. They are totally dependent on their wages to survive. They are wage slaves. The Capitalist uses the weakness of his slaves to his own advantage – the very definition of exploitation.
7. Capitalism allows freedom (to sell your labour).
The freedom to either work or die is hardly a choice – are slaves free? ]]> Exploring Christianity owenlikesknowing http://www.christianforums.com/t7418946/ Socialism and the Death Penalty! http://www.christianforums.com/t7418621/ Wed, 18 Nov 2009 21:18:57 GMT (Something different to talk about rather than the same old arguments :)) Hi all, I have left a thread for my objections to Christianity. I am not however against Christianity that much. I believe that there is much good in the doctrines of Christ, and that essentially it is one of the better... (Something different to talk about rather than the same old arguments :))

Hi all, I have left a thread for my objections to Christianity. I am not however against Christianity that much. I believe that there is much good in the doctrines of Christ, and that essentially it is one of the better faiths. In this thread I hope to find areas where I agree with you. There is no point in fighing each other when there are greater evils in the world.

There are two areas i would like to talk about: Socialsim and the death penalty.

What are your political views on Communism/Socialism? Do you agree/disagree with either?

Are you with me in how the death penalty is totally immoral?

Thanks for your time :)
Owen.

(P.S. I myself am a Communist. I would like to first clear up a few things about what I mean about communism. I despise the political regimes of China - The old Russian USSR, Cuba (to a lesser degree) and Korea.

To me they are as far from what Socialism and Communism is about as Nazism. How can all be equal in a dictatorship...?) ]]> Exploring Christianity owenlikesknowing http://www.christianforums.com/t7418621/ Evolution? http://www.christianforums.com/t7417940/ Mon, 16 Nov 2009 05:34:11 GMT Hi everyone!

As you can see I'm new here, and I've been lurking on these forums off and on for quite some time now and I thought I'd make a thread asking a very important question.

Do you believe in evolution? If so, does this conflict with your faith in any way or contradict the validity of the bible (mainly the OT, or the NT's reference to the OT)? If not, on what basis do you reject it?

I myself "accept" evolution just as I accept many scientifically credited theories of which we explain the phenomenons of the world.

I look forward to both reading and discussing your replies!

EDIT: By browsing now a little more recently, I discovered a topic covering science and the bible. I understand the similarity, but would like to emphasize that I don't really want to discuss the accuracy of the bible. I am more curious on what your views on evolution are and if you felt you've ever had to compartmentalize them because of your religion or fellow believers. ]]> Exploring Christianity Pathogen http://www.christianforums.com/t7417940/ What Horses? http://www.christianforums.com/t7417911/ Mon, 16 Nov 2009 02:46:13 GMT If all the horses of the Egyptians died due to Gods plague, how come pharaoh still had some to chase the Isrealites? Exodus 9:1-3 1Then the LORD said unto Moses, Go in unto Pharaoh, and tell him, Thus saith the LORD God of the Hebrews, Let my people go, that they may serve me. 2For if thou... If all the horses of the Egyptians died due to Gods plague, how come pharaoh still had some to chase the Isrealites?

Exodus 9:1-3
1Then the LORD said unto Moses, Go in unto Pharaoh, and tell him, Thus saith the LORD God of the Hebrews, Let my people go, that they may serve me. 2For if thou refuse to let them go, and wilt hold them still,
3Behold, the hand of the LORD is upon thy cattle which is in the field, upon the horses (Cattle), upon the asses, upon the camels, upon the oxen, and upon the sheep: there shall be a very grievous murrain (Disease).
4And the LORD shall sever between the cattle of Israel and the cattle of Egypt: and there shall nothing die of all that is the children's of Israel.
5And the LORD appointed a set time, saying, To morrow the LORD shall do this thing in the land.
6And the LORD did that thing on the morrow, and all the cattle (Horses) of Egypt died: but of the cattle of the children of Israel died not one.


The fifth plague of Egypt was an epidemic disease which exterminated the Egyptian livestock; that is, horses, donkeys, camels, cattle, sheep and goats. The Israelites' cattle were unharmed. Once again, Pharaoh made no concessions. ]]> Exploring Christianity yashua1970 http://www.christianforums.com/t7417911/ Young People and Sex http://www.christianforums.com/t7417648/ Sat, 14 Nov 2009 23:01:03 GMT Alright, lets just jump into the nitty gritty; Why do xtains have a thing against masturbation? Also in regards to sex education, the research that I have seen indicates that abstinence only sex eduaction in schools actually leads to higher rates of unprotected sex and other risky sexual... Alright, lets just jump into the nitty gritty;

Why do xtains have a thing against masturbation?

Also in regards to sex education, the research that I have seen indicates that abstinence only sex eduaction in schools actually leads to higher rates of unprotected sex and other risky sexual behavious that result in pregnancy and STIs. In light of this, why is it still promoted by the christian community? Why do so many christian or otherwise religious groups seem so opposed to discussing sex with their young people? I am aware that most of the groups that promote abstinence only sex ed in schools are christian or otherwise religious, but that this does not represent everyone.

If you are christian and have views on masterbation and abstinence only sex education, whether you are liberal or conservative, i would love to hear your views, especially if you are a parent yourself.

RP ]]> Exploring Christianity RealityPixie http://www.christianforums.com/t7417648/ The Bible in real life http://www.christianforums.com/t7417530/ Sat, 14 Nov 2009 06:39:48 GMT 1. How is the Bible reflected in your lived practices? 2. In regards to the doctrinal or philosophical dimension of the Bible, how is this, if at all, reflected in your lived practices? 1. How is the Bible reflected in your lived practices?

2. In regards to the doctrinal or philosophical dimension of the Bible, how is this, if at all, reflected in your lived practices? ]]> Exploring Christianity camerawwn http://www.christianforums.com/t7417530/ Science and Religion http://www.christianforums.com/t7417207/ Thu, 12 Nov 2009 22:12:54 GMT It seems to me like Science is in direct confrontation with religion on a number of issues. some of these issues have been solved (always with Christianity backing down to science) and some have not (well they have in all common and legal senses, but not in a debate sense). Here is my question... It seems to me like Science is in direct confrontation with religion on a number of issues. some of these issues have been solved (always with Christianity backing down to science) and some have not (well they have in all common and legal senses, but not in a debate sense).

Here is my question of the day, Why didnt God put down the correct way the world works in the bible? Instead it put in exactly what people believed when it was written. there are three (one of God's numbers) scientific theories (read: facts) which are at odds with reality.

The first one is of course evolution. Evolution clearly happens through natural and artificial selection and it is easily visible to anyone who looks. for instance, all domesticated dogs come from wolves. teacup dogs and great danes are technically different species because of a mechanical hindrance to reproduction (size).

The second is Germ Theory. Germs live in and around all things, but were not discovered until the late 1800's by Louis Pasteur. When he came out and began to talk about germs the religious institutions came down on him hard saying that sickness was the direct result of the devil. The Christian Science community still believes this to be the case, most other sects have conceded this one.

Lastly is the Heliocentric model. Copernicus was killed becuase he dared to create an accurate model of how the Earth rotated around the sun. the religious defense was Ecclesiastes 1:5 (for the guy who wanted to talk about Ecclesiastes), and a couple of other verses stating that it was not so. Galileo was forced to recant the same findings.

so, discuss. ]]> Exploring Christianity kidsagainstkows http://www.christianforums.com/t7417207/ trinity http://www.christianforums.com/t7417179/ Thu, 12 Nov 2009 20:55:18 GMT the doctrine of the trinity as I see it (correct me if I'm wrong):

the father, son and holy spirit are three distinct personalities, as distinct as any three people are from each other.

They have always existed and have always been distinct.

They have all have the same essence. What's the nature of that essence? Is it the same as the essence of any three people who are distinct personalities but all have minds and self-awareness?

Despite being three distinct personalities, they are one, because of the essence they share. If jesus is the only begotten son of the father, does this mean that the father begat him at some point? did he need someone else to beget him, like the holy spirit?

In the bible it says that the son is seated at the right hand of the father, does this mean these beings are subject to space, direction and finity? ]]> Exploring Christianity rainycity http://www.christianforums.com/t7417179/ Meaning of the Bible (personally) http://www.christianforums.com/t7417086/ Thu, 12 Nov 2009 09:22:56 GMT Hello, i am currently conducting an ethnographic study on religious communities. i have a few questions regarding the Bible 1. What does the Bible mean to you personally? 2. What is the significance of the Bible? 3. What relevance does this sacred text have to you? 4. How do you think this sacred... Hello, i am currently conducting an ethnographic study on religious communities.

i have a few questions regarding the Bible

1. What does the Bible mean to you personally?
2. What is the significance of the Bible?
3. What relevance does this sacred text have to you?
4. How do you think this sacred text is seen in contemporary society?
a. Is it still relevant to today’s society?
b. Has the interpretation changed over time?
5. Where does the Bible get its authority?
6. What challenges this?

it would be much appreciated if someone would like to participate in this interview .
- thank you ]]> Exploring Christianity camerawwn http://www.christianforums.com/t7417086/ Friendly reminders from Staff http://www.christianforums.com/t7416650/ Tue, 10 Nov 2009 20:53:46 GMT We have recently noticed that most of the reports from this area are issues that can easily be avoided. From the FSG: We recognize that real seekers are looking for real answers, and the first reply given may be insufficient to achieve this. It is acceptable for the Original Poster (OP) to probe... We have recently noticed that most of the reports from this area are issues that can easily be avoided.

From the FSG:
We recognize that real seekers are looking for real answers, and the first reply given may be insufficient to achieve this. It is acceptable for the Original Poster (OP) to probe the answers given, and to continue the discussion on lines which help to clarify their understanding of the Christian faith. If another non-Christian seeker wishes to ask questions about the Christian faith, they may start their own thread. No more than one non-Christian (the OP) may post in a thread.
If you're not the one who started the thread, but find the topic interesting, please start a new thread. You may link to the thread where the original question is - that way there's less confusion and you won't get reported. :)

Debate
This forum is for discussion of questions with non-Christians. There are some areas of theology in which different Christians may believe differently.
In these cases, we would ask Christians to refrain from debating the matter here. You may point out that there is a differing viewpoint, but please do not use this forum to debate with other Christians. If Christians wish to discuss various doctrines with other Christians, they should do so in the Theology forums.
If you're the OP (Opening poster) of the thread and you want to ask a follow-up question, that is ok. But, please no debate!

If you're a Christian wanting to reply to the thread, but don't agree with the others who have responded, you can (as the FSG states) point out that there are other views on the matter as well. BUT, you cannot start a discussion about it with fellow Christians in the thread. If you want to discuss it further, please take it up with the member through PM or in the Theology section.

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Thank you! ]]> Exploring Christianity Nilla http://www.christianforums.com/t7416650/ How is eternal life comforting? http://www.christianforums.com/t7416257/ Mon, 09 Nov 2009 09:22:45 GMT Yeah, I can understand superficially why it would be nice to believe that you live forever after you die, but when you really think about it. Eternity is a really long time, it would probably take me about 100-200 years before I started to get really bored.
You'd do everything you wanted to until you got bored, then everything you didn't want to do, just to have something to do. Eventually it would just become this mind numbing cycle of dull uniformity before you eventually descend into madness.

I prefer sweet oblivion.


[edit] probably shouldn't have posted this right before bed. See you in the morning guys. ]]> Exploring Christianity Wedjat http://www.christianforums.com/t7416257/ Why does a christian WORSHIP God? http://www.christianforums.com/t7416002/ Sun, 08 Nov 2009 04:58:34 GMT a few of my other topics have digressed into this so i thought starting a new one would be appropriate. the God of the old testament endorsed many horrible things. among these is slavery (not indentured servatude), child rape, unjust legal systems, might makes right mentality, genocide,... a few of my other topics have digressed into this so i thought starting a new one would be appropriate.

the God of the old testament endorsed many horrible things. among these is slavery (not indentured servatude), child rape, unjust legal systems, might makes right mentality, genocide, incestuous rape, and others. knowing this, and knowing that Jesus is an extension of the Jewish god, and knowing that god is the same now as yesterday and forever, why do you worship him.

that is to say, even if i believed that this god existed, i would rail against him. why on earth would any good and decent person not do the same. ]]> Exploring Christianity kidsagainstkows http://www.christianforums.com/t7416002/ Do you think animals can be accepted into heaven? http://www.christianforums.com/t7415929/ Sat, 07 Nov 2009 23:20:29 GMT Many Christians have told me different answers, so I guess it's just a matter of denomination or opinion. Do you guys think animals can be accepted into heaven? ]]> Exploring Christianity alexamasan http://www.christianforums.com/t7415929/ why are we responsible for original sin? http://www.christianforums.com/t7415739/ Sat, 07 Nov 2009 08:32:20 GMT Why are we guilty of original sin from the moment we're born? Do we exist before we are born, and we choose to be born into this world?
What is the reason for every individual being responsible for the sin of adam and eve? ]]> Exploring Christianity rainycity http://www.christianforums.com/t7415739/