This is a gathering of bits and pieces I have come across and have learned since being led into the wilderness... outside the camp.
Facebook exchange on eternal torment vs. good news. Freewill vs. sovereignity..
Posted 19th June 2010 at 06:56 PM by Tavita
6/20 Facebook exchange on Eternal torment vs. Good news......Free Will vs. Sovreignity, some great thoughts!
Tony Trumino
How WILL (not maybe) is God going to save ALL of mankind when most don't
believe.
Most will say: "He's not going to save ALL of mankind, but only those
who believe."
...
WAIT!!! Didn't God say this?
"Who WILL(not maybe) have .. ALL MEN ... to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the
truth." 1Tim. 2:4See More
Gary Munson
Tony, you're thinking and that is great. I've planted the same seeds and now allowing God to do what He will with it. Remember that all those who can't see the truth are blinded by STRONG delusion and will continue to be until God lifts the veil.
3 hours ago LikeUnlike
Deborah Fout
It is God's desire that all be saved. He won't force anyone. Why would someone want to spend eternity with a God that they actively oppose while here on earth?
2 hours ago LikeUnlike
Tony Trumino
... God doesn't have to FORCE anyone.... He sheds his love to those he chooses and when he does that, you WILL believe GLADLY.
Those who say what you did, believe in a God that WON'T or CAN'T create a plan where by his OWN creations will WILLFULLY accept what he has done for them. I don't know that God. Do you have a name for him?
2 hours ago LikeUnlike
Deborah Fout
This is false teaching. I am so sorry to say...but you are deluded. Joshua said..."choose ye this day whom ye will serve...." this is a choice. It is a conscious decision.
2 hours ago LikeUnlike
Tony Trumino
... Gary ... Do you actually BELIEVE that God will make some believe a LIE ... NO!!! NEVER!!!
That would be violating (forcing) mans "so called" FREE Will. Right?
Oh Wait!!!...
"And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie." 2Thes. 2:11
GEE!!! It looks like God and not my "so called" FREE Will is in charge. I can live with that and will.
2 hours ago LikeUnlike
Tony Trumino
... Deborah ... You better keep reading, because Israel NEVER choose God and that's WHY they were constanly being conquered by their enemies and why they crucified Jesus.
This is SUPPOSED to be a lesson for us to show us that we CAN'T do what God demands. If we could then WHY a savior?
So since TRUE then God solved man's problem by sending a SAVIOR to do what NONE of us could EVER do, because we are ALL born sinners. Read Rom. 3:10-12... See More
It's JESUS choice that saves you.
"Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured (choose) the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God." Heb. 12:2
However, you seem to believe that you made a conscience choice to believe and THEN you got saved.
OK. Tell me HOW you were able to do something God says is IMPOSSIBLE for sinner man to do when he says this about ALL sinners.
"There is NONE that understandeth, there is NONE that seeketh after God." Rom. 3:11
"For God hath concluded them ALL in unbelief." Rom. 3:32a
So let me in on the SECRET of how YOU were able to CHOOSE God by using your "so called" FREE Will so I can share this with others.
about an hour ago LikeUnlike
Deborah Fout
You make a mockery of the scriptures. That is ok. God knows the state of the heart. I pray that you can see the truth of the gospel before it is too late
about an hour ago LikeUnlike
Tony Trumino
... WHY don't you answer the question?
BTW. Here's what God says about our heart:
The heart is .. DECEITFUL ... above all things, and desperately ... WICKED .... who can know it?
about an hour ago LikeUnlike
Donald Cofield
Tony I share your frustration with those who pose arguments but are NEVER able to answer direct questions about scriptures that dispute their stance.
Many times I have asked them to answer a specific question about a specific scripture such as those you have posed only to get a barrage of other scriptures that are apparently intended to disprove ... See Morethe scriptures that I have presented.
Imagine that. Using one part of the Bible to dispute another part of the Bible.
Have you ever noticed that those who would say that someone else is deceived NEVER stops long enough to consider that they could also be deceived.
It is as if there is absolutely, positively no chance whatsoever that they could even remotely be deceived.
What arrogance!
Having come out of the "most of the people of the world will burn in hell forever" mentality, I can almost sense the anger in the voices of those who stand against universal reconciliation.
Of course they say that they truly care about us and want us to be saved, but at the same time they either say and/or think that "That's alright, you keep believing that lie and you will one day find out that I was right and you were wrong."
I have had some say it to me in such a way that I almost thought that they wanted me to die and go to hell so that I would finally learn my lesson and quit being a false teacher/prophet and as I was being tormented would be screaming their name and saying "OH MY GOD, YOU WERE RIGHT, YOU WERE RIGHT, I'M SORRY I DIDN'T BELIEVE YOU!!!!!"
Marcie Campbell Basch
1 Timothy 2:4 (Amplified Bible) 4Who wishes all men to be saved and [increasingly] to perceive and recognize and discern and know precisely and correctly the [divine] Truth.
The word will in the 2 Timothy verse does not mean will as in it will be, it means Will as in desires to be. Willeth (thelei). God... See Mores wish and will in so far as he can influence men. (RWP) Who will have all men to be saved (ὃς πάντας ἀνθρώπους θέλει σωθῆναι)
Lit, who willeth all men, etc. As who, or seeing that he, giving the ground of the previous statement. Prayer to God for all is acceptable to him, because he wills the salvation of all. Θέλει willeth, marking a determinate purpose. (VWS)
G2309
θέλω / ἐθέλω
thelō / ethelō
Thayer Definition:
1) to will, have in mind, intend
1a) to be resolved or determined, to purpose
1b) to desire, to wish
1c) to love
1c1) to like to do a thing, be fond of doing
1d) to take delight in, have pleasure
Part of Speech: verb (Thayer)
Thelo - Greek Lexicon
I am not going to get into any kind of debate here. Just sharing what the word means in this particular scripture.
Some other scriptures to look up: Matthew 7:13-14; Matthew 13 (many verses); Luke 6:46
about an hour ago LikeUnlike
Bob Wexler
Actually that word will in that scripture, if you do the study of the word comes from the word airo which means to take upon ones self and carry which is to be raised. This word "will" is talking about something BEQUEATHED. He chose us we can either agree with that or not. That is why some walk with Father God and understand oneness and then there are those who are always trying to please an already pleased Father. Just my 2 cents.
20 minutes ago LikeUnlike
Tony Trumino
... MARCIE ... OH I see!!! And you use the AMPLIFIED Bible to prove your point.
Let's go to the ORIGINAL Language to find out the LITERAL meaning of what that word WILL is in 1Tim. 2:4 means:
2309. thelo thel'-o or ethelo eth-el'-o, in certain tenses theleo thel-eh'-o, and etheleo eth-el-eh'-o, which are otherwise obsolete apparently strengthened from the alternate form of 138; TO DETERMINE....
God is .. DETERMINED TO (will) ... save ALL of mankind and WHO or WHAT is going to stand in his way?
You actually believe that God has DESIRES that he knows ... AHEAD OF TIME ... will ...NEVER EVER HAPPEN?
Give me a break with that Re-LIE-gious NON-SENSE.
God MAKES things to happen. Not HOPES things will go his way. That's WHY he is called ALMIGHTY God and not called ... The "Las Vegas God" who rolls the dice and HOPES the dice rolls his way ... Wake Up!!!
Tony Trumino
How WILL (not maybe) is God going to save ALL of mankind when most don't
believe.
Most will say: "He's not going to save ALL of mankind, but only those
who believe."
...
WAIT!!! Didn't God say this?
"Who WILL(not maybe) have .. ALL MEN ... to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the
truth." 1Tim. 2:4See More
Gary Munson
Tony, you're thinking and that is great. I've planted the same seeds and now allowing God to do what He will with it. Remember that all those who can't see the truth are blinded by STRONG delusion and will continue to be until God lifts the veil.
3 hours ago LikeUnlike
Deborah Fout
It is God's desire that all be saved. He won't force anyone. Why would someone want to spend eternity with a God that they actively oppose while here on earth?
2 hours ago LikeUnlike
Tony Trumino
... God doesn't have to FORCE anyone.... He sheds his love to those he chooses and when he does that, you WILL believe GLADLY.
Those who say what you did, believe in a God that WON'T or CAN'T create a plan where by his OWN creations will WILLFULLY accept what he has done for them. I don't know that God. Do you have a name for him?
2 hours ago LikeUnlike
Deborah Fout
This is false teaching. I am so sorry to say...but you are deluded. Joshua said..."choose ye this day whom ye will serve...." this is a choice. It is a conscious decision.
2 hours ago LikeUnlike
Tony Trumino
... Gary ... Do you actually BELIEVE that God will make some believe a LIE ... NO!!! NEVER!!!
That would be violating (forcing) mans "so called" FREE Will. Right?
Oh Wait!!!...
"And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie." 2Thes. 2:11
GEE!!! It looks like God and not my "so called" FREE Will is in charge. I can live with that and will.
2 hours ago LikeUnlike
Tony Trumino
... Deborah ... You better keep reading, because Israel NEVER choose God and that's WHY they were constanly being conquered by their enemies and why they crucified Jesus.
This is SUPPOSED to be a lesson for us to show us that we CAN'T do what God demands. If we could then WHY a savior?
So since TRUE then God solved man's problem by sending a SAVIOR to do what NONE of us could EVER do, because we are ALL born sinners. Read Rom. 3:10-12... See More
It's JESUS choice that saves you.
"Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured (choose) the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God." Heb. 12:2
However, you seem to believe that you made a conscience choice to believe and THEN you got saved.
OK. Tell me HOW you were able to do something God says is IMPOSSIBLE for sinner man to do when he says this about ALL sinners.
"There is NONE that understandeth, there is NONE that seeketh after God." Rom. 3:11
"For God hath concluded them ALL in unbelief." Rom. 3:32a
So let me in on the SECRET of how YOU were able to CHOOSE God by using your "so called" FREE Will so I can share this with others.
about an hour ago LikeUnlike
Deborah Fout
You make a mockery of the scriptures. That is ok. God knows the state of the heart. I pray that you can see the truth of the gospel before it is too late
about an hour ago LikeUnlike
Tony Trumino
... WHY don't you answer the question?
BTW. Here's what God says about our heart:
The heart is .. DECEITFUL ... above all things, and desperately ... WICKED .... who can know it?
about an hour ago LikeUnlike
Donald Cofield
Tony I share your frustration with those who pose arguments but are NEVER able to answer direct questions about scriptures that dispute their stance.
Many times I have asked them to answer a specific question about a specific scripture such as those you have posed only to get a barrage of other scriptures that are apparently intended to disprove ... See Morethe scriptures that I have presented.
Imagine that. Using one part of the Bible to dispute another part of the Bible.
Have you ever noticed that those who would say that someone else is deceived NEVER stops long enough to consider that they could also be deceived.
It is as if there is absolutely, positively no chance whatsoever that they could even remotely be deceived.
What arrogance!
Having come out of the "most of the people of the world will burn in hell forever" mentality, I can almost sense the anger in the voices of those who stand against universal reconciliation.
Of course they say that they truly care about us and want us to be saved, but at the same time they either say and/or think that "That's alright, you keep believing that lie and you will one day find out that I was right and you were wrong."
I have had some say it to me in such a way that I almost thought that they wanted me to die and go to hell so that I would finally learn my lesson and quit being a false teacher/prophet and as I was being tormented would be screaming their name and saying "OH MY GOD, YOU WERE RIGHT, YOU WERE RIGHT, I'M SORRY I DIDN'T BELIEVE YOU!!!!!"
Marcie Campbell Basch
1 Timothy 2:4 (Amplified Bible) 4Who wishes all men to be saved and [increasingly] to perceive and recognize and discern and know precisely and correctly the [divine] Truth.
The word will in the 2 Timothy verse does not mean will as in it will be, it means Will as in desires to be. Willeth (thelei). God... See Mores wish and will in so far as he can influence men. (RWP) Who will have all men to be saved (ὃς πάντας ἀνθρώπους θέλει σωθῆναι)
Lit, who willeth all men, etc. As who, or seeing that he, giving the ground of the previous statement. Prayer to God for all is acceptable to him, because he wills the salvation of all. Θέλει willeth, marking a determinate purpose. (VWS)
G2309
θέλω / ἐθέλω
thelō / ethelō
Thayer Definition:
1) to will, have in mind, intend
1a) to be resolved or determined, to purpose
1b) to desire, to wish
1c) to love
1c1) to like to do a thing, be fond of doing
1d) to take delight in, have pleasure
Part of Speech: verb (Thayer)
Thelo - Greek Lexicon
I am not going to get into any kind of debate here. Just sharing what the word means in this particular scripture.
Some other scriptures to look up: Matthew 7:13-14; Matthew 13 (many verses); Luke 6:46
about an hour ago LikeUnlike
Bob Wexler
Actually that word will in that scripture, if you do the study of the word comes from the word airo which means to take upon ones self and carry which is to be raised. This word "will" is talking about something BEQUEATHED. He chose us we can either agree with that or not. That is why some walk with Father God and understand oneness and then there are those who are always trying to please an already pleased Father. Just my 2 cents.
20 minutes ago LikeUnlike
Tony Trumino
... MARCIE ... OH I see!!! And you use the AMPLIFIED Bible to prove your point.
Let's go to the ORIGINAL Language to find out the LITERAL meaning of what that word WILL is in 1Tim. 2:4 means:
2309. thelo thel'-o or ethelo eth-el'-o, in certain tenses theleo thel-eh'-o, and etheleo eth-el-eh'-o, which are otherwise obsolete apparently strengthened from the alternate form of 138; TO DETERMINE....
God is .. DETERMINED TO (will) ... save ALL of mankind and WHO or WHAT is going to stand in his way?
You actually believe that God has DESIRES that he knows ... AHEAD OF TIME ... will ...NEVER EVER HAPPEN?
Give me a break with that Re-LIE-gious NON-SENSE.
God MAKES things to happen. Not HOPES things will go his way. That's WHY he is called ALMIGHTY God and not called ... The "Las Vegas God" who rolls the dice and HOPES the dice rolls his way ... Wake Up!!!
Total Comments 1
Comments
 | [bless and do not curse] Wow, I just signed on with Christian Forums and am saddened by the level of mean and rude comments I am seeing. Nonetheless, I know that God's love shines even brighter in a dark place. Jesus said Jn 12:32 - 33 “And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all [men] unto me. This he said, signifying what death he should die.” Was Jesus crucified on a cross? Yes. So, will He draw all men unto himself? Yes. (or Jesus is a liar) Strong’s #1670 – HELKUO 1) to draw, drag off 2) metaph., to draw by inward power, lead, impel The Greek word, HELKUO, is the word used in this verse for 'draw'. Jn 6:44 “No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: ... Jn 18:10 Then Simon Peter having a sword drew it, and smote ... Jn 21:6 ... and now they were not able to draw it for the multitude of fishes. Jn 21:11 Simon Peter went up , and drew the net to land full of great fishes, an hundred and fifty and three: and for all there were so many, yet was not the net broken . Act 16:19 ... they caught Paul and Silas, and drew [them] into the marketplace ... Act 21:30 ... and they took Paul, and drew him out of the temple: ... Jam 2:6 ... Do not rich men oppress you, and draw you before the judgment seats? In every case it means to drag forcefully. When Jesus was speaking of casting a DRAGnet into the sea, we understand that the fish don't get politely asked into the net. And it is interesting that the same dragnet was a term used as a metaphor for 'catching' men. Jesus also said that no one comes to Him unless the Father 'Draws' him. Yes, that's right! It is the same word HELKUO. No one can come to Jesus unless the Father forcibly drags them against their will. No one came to God willingly; slaves must do what they are told by those to whom they are sold. A slave to sin and unrighteousness cannot ‘choose’ to no longer do those things no matter how much they would like not to! (Rom. 6:16 – 22) While we were yet enemies Christ died for us. (Rom. 5:6, 8) We love Him because He first loved us. (1 Jn. 4:19) I have heard all of the free will/free choice debates; it comes down to this: If you are not born again in Christ, then you have “free will” to do anything your carnal fleshly desires tell you to do. The flesh is not capable of turning to God because no good thing dwells in it! |
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Recent Blog Entries by Tavita
- Facebook exchange on eternal torment vs. good news. Freewill vs. sovereignity.. (19th June 2010)
- Charlotte Bronte - A quote from the novel 'Jane Eyre' (19th September 2009)
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