I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man

tonychanyt said:

1 Timothy 2:11-15:

Paul was pointing to himself, not God.

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And "the rest of the story" (Paul Harvey). . .

When Paul is pointing to himself and not to the teaching he received from Jesus personally (Gal 1:11-12), he says so (1 Co 7:3, 12). He

1) does not say so here, and
2) and grounds it in God's unchanging creation order (1 Tim 2:13-14).

Clare73 said:

And "the rest of the story" (Paul Harvey). . .

When Paul is pointing to himself and not to the teaching he received from Jesus personally (Gal 1:11-12), he says so (1 Co 7:3, 12). He

1) does not say so here, and
2) and grounds it in God's unchanging creation order (1 Tim 2:13-14).

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To the Moon Alice! One of these Days!

I've been difficult to speak with. Now I will agree with you.

Paul perpetually uses "Symbolism" within his writings. A Woman to Paul... is actually a Church. A Man to Paul is actually a Church Leader. So Paul is saying that... Church Members need to Listen to their Leader, when He is speaking... unless the Leader is abusing the Hat thing.

Paul didn't write about hats, under threat of death, either. He is saying that the Head of Jesus is His Father, while the Body of Christ's Head is Jesus. This is Paul imploring the Church to Never Ever use any writing outside of Scripture. He's saying the Scripture and 1 John 2:27 are far more than sufficient enough to Lead the Body, up until Glory to Glory.

My two cents. Teach on Sister. Or... To the Moon Alice.... Whichever you prefer.

tonychanyt said:

1 Timothy 2:11-15:


Paul was pointing to himself, not God.


Paul seemed to be expressing his personal reasoning. As an apostle, it carried some weight at the time of its social environment. However, it doesn't have to be applied universally to all women today. It was not an absolute command from the Lord.

Should a woman be a pastor of a church?

It is up to Christ, Ephesians 4:


If a woman (or a man) wants to be a pastor in a church, she should seek Christ's calling. A woman can be a pastor, particularly in today's social environment.

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But Paul didn't say that he was expressing his opinion. Jesus said to Paul, "I will tell you what to say". Paul didn't know why he said many of the things he said at the time, as God was speaking through Paul. So it's not correct to claim that it was Paul's personal opinion, I'm sure Paul may have had personal opinions about certain things.
But no personal opinions, were ever included in the Bible as instructive. The fact is God never allowed women to be Church Pastors, Jesus only chose men to be Ministers in the Church.

You would need to trample over many scriptures and ignore them, in order to suggest the women can be Ministers. The Church has denied women a place in the pulpit for the past 2000 years, for good reason. The progressive ideology, is like a cancer which is corroding the foundation of the Church. It should be cut out, before it causes irreparable damage to the Church.

The irony being, that Paul did permit. He upheld and praised Phoebe the deaon. And Junia the apostle. And Priscilla the teacher. And Lydia the house church leader. And many others. We have to keep all of that in view as part of the background to these statements, and see that he does not here speak in absolutes.

Clare73 said:

2) and grounds it in God's unchanging creation order (1 Tim 2:13-14).

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Trees were created before humans; should trees be Pastors?

Adam being created first is not an indication that women cannot lead or be pastors.
If that had been God's will, and his unchanging law, he would not have called Deborah to be judge - never mind allowed her to continue for 40 years.

Dan1988 said:

But Paul didn't say that he was expressing his opinion.

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He said "I do not permit ....", not "God does not permit".

tonychanyt said:

1 Timothy 2:11-15:


Paul was pointing to himself, not God.


Paul seemed to be expressing his personal reasoning. As an apostle, it carried some weight at the time of its social environment. However, it doesn't have to be applied universally to all women today. It was not an absolute command from the Lord.

Should a woman be a pastor of a church?

It is up to Christ, Ephesians 4:


If a woman (or a man) wants to be a pastor in a church, she should seek Christ's calling. A woman can be a pastor, particularly in today's social environment.

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I'm glad that I dont have a church or follow any teachers. I don't need to worry about this mess

Paidiske said:

The irony being, that Paul did permit. He upheld and praised Phoebe the deaon. And Junia the apostle. And Priscilla the teacher. And Lydia the house church leader. And many others. We have to keep all of that in view as part of the background to these statements, and see that he does not here speak in absolutes.

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That's all well and good, but it sounds like Paul was referring to women teaching their children at home and perhaps teaching the children at Church in Sunday School classes. He never suggested that a woman could become a Church Minister or Elder, as he would be opposing what the Biblical model of what qualifications an Elder or Church Leader needs.

As you can see the Bible outlines the requirements, which clearly exclude women in the verses below. They leave no doubt that Church leadership is for men exclusively, and it leaves no doubt that women cannot be Elder or Leaders. Besides that, the Church has never even considered the possibility for the past 2000 years.

1 Timothy 3:2-5

A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, temperate, sober-minded, of good behavior, hospitable, able to teach; not given to wine, not violent, not greedy for money, but gentle, not quarrelsome, not covetous; one who rules his own house well, having his children in submission with all reverence (for if a man does not know how to rule his own house, how will he take care of the church of God?)

Dan1988 said:

That's all well and good, but it sounds like Paul was referring to women teaching their children at home and perhaps teaching the children at Church in Sunday School classes.

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Does it? What makes you say that?

When he sent Phoebe with his letter to the Romans, and the letter-carrier would normally be the one to teach its contents and answer questions, and he told the Roman church to do "whatever she may require from you," it sure doesn't sound like she was being relegated to the (totally anachronistic) Sunday school.

Dan1988 said:

He never suggested that a woman could become a Church Minister or Elder, as he would be opposing what the Biblical model of what qualifications an Elder or Church Leader needs.

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He didn't just suggest it, he commended women who did it!

Dan1988 said:

As you can see the Bible outlines the requirements, which clearly exclude women in the verses below.

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I don't agree that they exclude women. The virtues listed - blamelessness, monogamy, temperance, and so on - are not gendered virtues.

Dan1988 said:

Besides that, the Church has never even considered the possibility for the past 2000 years.

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I'm a woman who's a priest (elder), so we've gone way beyond considering the possibility.

Strong in Him said:

He said "I do not permit ....", not "God does not permit".

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So, you don't believe that Jesus said, "I will tell you what to say", are you saying that Paul was a rouge agent.

Paidiske said:

Does it? What makes you say that?

When he sent Phoebe with his letter to the Romans, and the letter-carrier would normally be the one to teach its contents and answer questions, and he told the Roman church to do "whatever she may require from you," it sure doesn't sound like she was being relegated to the (totally anachronistic) Sunday school.

He didn't just suggest it, he commended women who did it!

I don't agree that they exclude women. The virtues listed - blamelessness, monogamy, temperance, and so on - are not gendered virtues.

I'm a woman who's a priest (elder), so we've gone way beyond considering the possibility.

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I'm not sure which religion you belong to but my Church doesn't even recognize you religion and being valid We know there are many man made religions who claim to be a part of the Church but, many of them don't meet the criteria for a valid Christian Church, so they are self appointed and invalid and we can have no fellowship with unbiblical self appointed authorities.

I noticed you ignored the part where it says (a husband of one wife) and (he must run his household well). The man is the head of his family, so you can cherry pick bible verses out of their intended context and make them say what they are not as much as you like but it will never change what God has said. And you will never convince the Church to deviate away from Gods instructions.

tonychanyt said:

See Do Christians have to attend church? and follow up there

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I am a church.

Dan1988 said:

So, you don't believe that Jesus said, "I will tell you what to say", are you saying that Paul was a rouge agent.

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No.
Jesus didn't say to Paul I will tell you what to say."
Paul also said things like "these men should go and castrate themselves", and "do not put widows under 60 on a list " (for financial assistance).
He also called Peter a hypocrite and once had such a sharp argument with Barnabas (the man who had introduced him to the Apostles) that they parted company. Did Jesus tell him to say all those things too?

And why would Paul say that he didn't allow a woman (note, not all women) to speak and teach when he had female co-workers and knew that Priscilla had taught Apollos?

Dan1988 said:

That's all well and good, but it sounds like Paul was referring to women teaching their children at home and perhaps teaching the children at Church in Sunday School classes.

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Doesn't sound like that to me.
They didn't have Sunday school classes then.

Dan1988 said:

He never suggested that a woman could become a Church Minister or Elder,

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He never suggested that we use computers, PowerPoint, visual aids etc. etc. either, but we do.

Dan1988 said:

As you can see the Bible outlines the requirements,

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Does it?
Strange then that it doesn't mention faith, prayer, worship, knowing God, having an understanding of the faith and a deep knowledge of Scripture.

Dan1988 said:

1 Timothy 3:2-5

A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife,

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I.E not more than one.

Dan1988 said:

temperate, sober-minded, of good behavior, hospitable, able to teach; not given to wine, not violent, not greedy for money, but gentle, not quarrelsome, not covetous;

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And how many people do you know who have been turned down for ordination because they are not temperate, gentle or able to offer hospitality? How many people protest that the church should not be ordaining people who are quarrelsome?
In my experience - no one.
The only thing that's singled out of this list is marital status - "oh, clergy can have only one wife, therefore, clergy can only be men."
If having a wife is a requirement, then Catholic priests, the pope and any other single clergymen are disobedient.
Also, if a man were to marry so as to be eligible for ordination, but he then got turned down, what would he do then - divorce?

Dan1988 said:

having his children in submission with all reverence (for if a man does not know how to rule his own house, how will he take care of the church of God?)

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So therefore, not only MUST a clergyman be married, he MUST have children?
Supposing a man gets married and then finds out he and his wife can't have children? According to this, he would not be fulfilling the requirements needed to remain ordained.

Dan1988 said:

I'm not sure which religion you belong to but my Church doesn't even recognize you religion and being valid

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Baptists do not recognise Anglicans as Christian? That's news to me. (You might find this interesting reading: https://baptistworld.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Baptist-Anglican-Dialogue.pdf )

You have, however, surely been around on CF long enough to realise that suggesting that other Christians are not Christians is considered flaming.

Dan1988 said:

I noticed you ignored the part where it says (a husband of one wife) and (he must run his household well).

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No, I didn't. I noted the need for monogamy (the point of being a "husband of one wife"). And I would agree that someone in leadership in the church must also exercise leadership well in the home. I just don't agree that the text here should be taken to mean it applies only to men. Nor do I see that as Paul's position, given what he elsewhere says about women in various leadership roles.

Dan1988 said:

And you will never convince the Church to deviate away from Gods instructions.

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Nor would I wish to. I pursue my vocation in obedience to God, and I would urge others individually, and the Church corporately, to do the same.

Clare73 said:

What wisdom!

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Just following the logic of the argument.

Clare73 said:

Then you are in disagreement with the teaching Paul received from Jesus Christ (Gal 1:11-12).

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No, I'm not.
Women did lead - Deborah - and speak God's word to men - Miriam, Deborah, Huldah. On one occasion, Sarah even said something to Abraham and God told him "listen to your wife", Genesis 21:12.
Paul is not saying, "this is a command from God."

Clare73 said:

And yet, in addition to subjecting woman to man in marriage and the assembly, God also slaughters children (Eze 9:6) and makes adulterers into king (David).

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What's that got to do with it?

Clare73 said:

God's ways not your ways, they are higher than your ways (Isa 55:9).

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Yes - and yours.
And if God chooses to call a woman to proclaim his Gospel, lead a local congregation in his church and serve him in this way with gifts that he has given; he is entitled to do so.