Is modern secular society headed down the path to Sodom and Gomorrah.

Zaha Torte said:

Why do you believe that Joseph Smith Jr was a "con man"?

Click to expand...

His court records for start. Then it just continues.

Zaha Torte said:

Why do you believe that God and His plan for His children is my idea?

Click to expand...

Because your idea of God's plan for his children is not quite the same as many other's. Wrapping all of those disparate issues into one vast, monolithic conspiracy is definitely your idea.

2PhiloVoid said:

Ultimately, as you know, it's not whether or not I approve of it or anyone else approves of it. And I know that if I was merely left to myself and my own thoughts in this life, without recourse to a large number of insights about the world in which we live, polygamy and/or polyamory would look especially appealing, as they have to many men.

For the moment, it's good to know that you question these things as well.

Click to expand...

For the record - the practice of polygamy in the early-LDS Church was not very appealing and many left the Church because of it.

Those who practiced it also expressed discomfort - including the Prophet Joseph Smith Jr.

2PhiloVoid said:

Ultimately, as you know, it's not whether or not I approve of it or anyone else approves of it. And I know that if I was merely left to myself and my own thoughts in this life, without recourse to a large number of insights about the world in which we live, polygamy and/or polyamory would look especially appealing, as they have to many men.

For the moment, it's good to know that you question these things as well.

Click to expand...

I don't know. I lived for a couple of years in a Muslim country where polygamy is allowed. Very few men actually take it up.

Zaha Torte said:

For the record - the practice of polygamy in the early-LDS Church was not very appealing and many left the Church because of it.

Those who practiced it also expressed discomfort - including the Prophet Joseph Smith Jr.

Click to expand...

So, let me assume, then, that if I put on my historian's hat and I go looking for corroboration for these statements of yours, not only will I find corroboration for them but I'll find them with contexts fitting the implications that you've alluded to about them.

May I assume this will be the case?

Hans Blaster said:

His court records for start. Then it just continues.

Click to expand...

Are you referring to the pre-trail hearing or the mess regarding the bank?

BCP1928 said:

Because your idea of God's plan for his children is not quite the same as many other's. Wrapping all of those disparate issues into one vast, monolithic conspiracy is definitely your idea.

Click to expand...

I am definitely not the source of the idea that Satan exists and that he is waging a spiritual war with us at all times.

I am also not the source of the idea that God has decreed that all sexual activity outside of a man and woman who are legally and lawfully married is sexual sin and should be avoided.

Just because I disagree with other people about God and His plan for us - that does not mean that I am the source of these and other ideas.

Zaha Torte said:

Are you referring to the pre-trail hearing or the mess regarding the bank?

Click to expand...

I was thinking of his pre-"revelation" conviction in upstate NY. I'd forgotten about his other legal troubles. It isn't helping his case.

BCP1928 said:

I don't know. I lived for a couple of years in a Muslim country where polygamy is allowed. Very few men actually take it up.

Click to expand...

Yes, I'm aware that polygamy is rather a complicated scenario for any man to choose today and it's not that widespread in practice, even in the Middle-East. Polygamy was complicated even thousands of years ago, but it's just more so today. I'm not surprised if Muslim men don't often take up their cultural entitlements.

2PhiloVoid said:

Yes, I'm aware that polygamy is rather a complicated scenario for any man to choose today and it's not that widespread in practice, even in the Middle-East. Polygamy was complicated even thousands of years ago, but it's just more so today. I'm not surprised if Muslim men don't often take up their cultural entitlements.

Click to expand...

Sometimes they do, for other reasons than just more sex. My next-door neighbor was an elderly married man with grown children when his brother died, leaving a childless, impoverished widow. He married her without thought of consummation, but merely to give her the protection of his household in a country where single women have few rights. It was considered by all to be an honorable thing to do.

2PhiloVoid said:

So, let me assume, then, that if I put on my historian's hat and I go looking for corroboration for these statements of yours, not only will I find corroboration for them but I'll find them with contexts fitting the implications that you've alluded to about them.

May I assume this will be the case?

Click to expand...

Surely you know better than to assume anything.
The momrons teachings are fatal to the souls trapped/ tricked. Like all false teachers, the followers don't realize the danger they are in, nor the danger to their own little children , and others.
The false gospels are extremely widespread today, and have been always.
But people taught by a false gospel, believe false gospels are okay - live and let live so to speak.

Like letting carnivorous mammals feast on the flesh of one's own family and friends !!

BCP1928 said:

Sometimes they do, for other reasons than just more sex. My next-door neighbor was an elderly married man with grown children when his brother died, leaving a childless, impoverished widow. He married her without thought of consummation, but merely to give her the protection of his household in a country where single women have few rights. It was considered by all to be an honorable thing to do.

Click to expand...

And was your next-door neighbor already married when he took that widow in? I'm just asking because I know that somewhere in the middle of this, we'll want to designate the semantic and denotative differences between: polygamy, polygyny, polyandry, and the current favorite, polyamory.

2PhiloVoid said:

So, let me assume, then, that if I put on my historian's hat and I go looking for corroboration for these statements of yours, not only will I find corroboration for them but I'll find them with contexts fitting the implications that you've alluded to about them.

May I assume this will be the case?

Click to expand...

Correct - many of the brethren for decades after the martyrdom of the Prophet Joseph Smith Jr continued to berate the early-LDS Church because of their resistance to - not only the practice of - but the very idea of plural marriage.

Hans Blaster said:

I was thinking of his pre-"revelation" conviction in upstate NY. I'd forgotten about his other legal troubles. It isn't helping his case.

Click to expand...

The Prophet Joseph Smith Jr claimed to have been visited by both God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ in what has since been referred to as the Sacred Grove when he was only fourteen years old.

Perhaps you meant pre-founding of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?

The only legal proceedings that I was aware of that he dealt with before the founding of the LDS Church was the pre-trial hearing that I have already mentioned.

Zaha Torte said:

The Prophet Joseph Smith Jr claimed to have been visited by both God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ in what has since been referred to as the Sacred Grove when he was only fourteen years old.

Perhaps you meant pre-founding of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?

The only legal proceedings that I was aware of that he dealt with before the founding of the LDS Church was the pre-trial hearing that I have already mentioned.

Click to expand...

I didn't realize about the 1830 NY case, but I was thinking of the 1826 NY case:

Joseph Smith and the criminal justice system - Wikipedia

Hans Blaster said:

I didn't realize about the 1830 NY case, but I was thinking of the 1826 NY case:

Joseph Smith and the criminal justice system - Wikipedia

Click to expand...

This was the pre-trial hearing - or rather examination - that I was referring to.

It was not a trial - he was not found guilty of any crime - and the court costs were paid.

Zaha Torte said:

This was the pre-trial hearing - or rather examination - that I was referring to.

It was not a trial - he was not found guilty of any crime - and the court costs were paid.

Click to expand...

So many other crimes listed...

Hans Blaster said:

So many other crimes listed...

Click to expand...

A lot of charges laid against him time and time again. He was not popular among certain circles.

Zaha Torte said:

A lot of charges laid against him time and time again. He was not popular among certain circles.

Click to expand...

Including with the husbands of his additional wives. You're not going to get me to think Smith was some sort of marter instead of a disreputable person using religion to manipulated and gain power.

2PhiloVoid said:

And was your next-door neighbor already married when he took that widow in? I'm just asking because I know that somewhere in the middle of this, we'll want to designate the semantic and denotative differences between: polygamy, polygyny, polyandry, and the current favorite, polyamory.

Click to expand...

Yes, he already had one wife.