Free will and determinism

childeye 2 said:

4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

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The fact that God did grant mankind Dominion over every living thing that moves on the face of the earth... ends the debate. God gave mankind Free Autonomous Individual Moral Agency... AKA Sovereignty over, even themselves, as a blessing. This isn't theological insinuation, or speculation. It is 100% from the mouth of God, within the Pentateuch.

Grip Docility said:

The fact that God did grant mankind Dominion over every living thing that moves on the face of the earth... ends the debate. God gave mankind Free Autonomous Individual Moral Agency... AKA Sovereignty over, even themselves, as a blessing. This isn't theological insinuation, or speculation. It is 100% from the mouth of God, within the Pentateuch.

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I get what you're saying. Although being given dominion doesn't address being deceived, I'm not debating that. On a base level, I'm debating whether goodness is a quality of God's Spiritual attributes in mankind, or the product of our own volition.

2 Corinthians 11:3
But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

childeye 2 said:

I'm not debating that. I'm debating whether goodness is a quality of God's Spiritual attributes in mankind, or the product of our own volition.

2 Corinthians 11:3
But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

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I don't think "Goodness" was ever an attribute of any creation of mankind. I would say that Mankind has always been neutral. ONLY GOD IS GOOD. When Jesus stated that Only God is good, He literally omitted ALL existing Creation from the statement, including the Angels.
God alone is Good. Satan chose to do Evil, under the guise of Good. Evil multiplies evil. To BE Good is to BE GOD, or at the very least... to BE a recipient of His imputed Righteousness.

I feel the need to expound. By God's design, Creation was deemed Good. Under different authority, Creation was led astray and deemed Damned. God never desired Creation to be under it's own rule. Romans 1 makes this specific when it refers to the Creation worshiping the Created.

That's my humble opinion.

Grip Docility said:

I don't think "Goodness" was ever an attribute of any creation of mankind.

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I assume you've experienced kindness and you have felt compassion for others. I see these as Spiritual attributes in mankind attributable to God's Spirit, and not attributable to flesh and blood. I think that since God's breath gave us life, mankind was bestowed with God's attributes, but I also believe we did not know how to value what had been given to us without experiencing losing it, and therefore in our innocence we were open to deception and corruption.

Grip Docility said:

I would say that Mankind has always been neutral. ONLY GOD IS GOOD. When Jesus stated that Only God is good, He literally omitted ALL existing Creation from the statement, including the Angels.

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What we believe to be true will determine what we feel in the heart. While it's true that Only God is good, it's the image of God we believe in that gives definition to the term good. To elaborate further, since we're made in His Image, it's the imagery we hold to be true that defines who we think God is and subsequently how we think God would judge. So that if the imagery in our heart and mind is corrupted by a worldly image of god, then the light of our soul is also corrupted.

4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

5 For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake.

6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

Grip Docility said:

God alone is Good. Satan chose to do Evil, under the guise of Good. Evil multiplies evil. To BE Good is to BE GOD, or at the very least... to BE a recipient of His imputed Righteousness.

That's my humble opinion.

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I believe Satan had a vain image of god in his mind which he sowed in the world, because in the garden and in the book of Job, Satan spoke of God as if God was subject to vanity. And therefore I believe he does not know God, is deceived, and spreads his own deception in vainglory.

In fundamental semantics of positive/negative, The Christ Image shows a person willing to sacrifice himself suffering torture and death to save those beneath him, while Satan's imagery of god is a person who would sacrifice all others beneath him to save himself.

childeye 2 said:

I assume you've experienced kindness and you have felt compassion for others. I see these as Spiritual attributes in mankind attributable to God's Spirit, and not attributable to flesh and blood. I think that since God's breath gave us life, mankind was bestowed with God's attributes, but I also believe we did not know how to value what had been given to us without experiencing losing it, and therefore in our innocence we were open to deception and corruption.

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You don't hide behind scripture. You speak your heart. Allow me to give you deep respect! Don't get me wrong, I believe the Fruits of the Spirit were within Adam and Eve, as they were connected directly to God, as God was leading Adam and Eve like little children, right up untl... well, you know.

We were absolutely created for Good works. Scripture says so. I believe you and I agree on just how special and infinite that Breath is. I don't see this that often.

I fully agree that our innocence made us Naïve.

childeye 2 said:

Only God is good, but it's the image of God that gives definition to the term good. Since we're made in His Image, it's the imagery we hold to be true that defines who we think God is and subsequently how we think God would judge. So that if the imagery in our heart and mind is corrupted by a worldly image of god, then the light of our soul is also corrupted.

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WoW! I fully agree with you. Jesus; "Everyone on the side of Truth listens to ME". Pilate "What is Truth"

childeye 2 said:

4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

5 For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake.

6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

I believe Satan had a vain image of god, because in the garden and in the book of Job, Satan spoke of God as if God was subject to vanity.

In fundamental semantics of positive/negative, The Christ Image shows a person willing to sacrifice himself suffering torture and death to save those beneath him, while Satan's imagery of god is a person who would sacrifice all others beneath him to save himself.

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Amen!

childeye 2 said:

I assume you've experienced kindness and you have felt compassion for others. I see these as Spiritual attributes in mankind attributable to God's Spirit, and not attributable to flesh and blood. I think that since God's breath gave us life, mankind was bestowed with God's attributes, but I also believe we did not know how to value what had been given to us without experiencing losing it, and therefore in our innocence we were open to deception and corruption.

Only God is good, but it's the image of God that gives definition to the term good. To elaborate further, since we're made in His Image, it's the imagery we hold to be true that defines who we think God is and subsequently how we think God would judge. So that if the imagery in our heart and mind is corrupted by a worldly image of god, then the light of our soul is also corrupted.

4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

5 For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake.

6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.


I believe Satan had a vain image of god in his mind which he sowed in the world, because in the garden and in the book of Job, Satan spoke of God as if God was subject to vanity. And therefore I believe he does not know God, is deceived, and spreads his own deception in vainglory.

In fundamental semantics of positive/negative, The Christ Image shows a person willing to sacrifice himself suffering torture and death to save those beneath him, while Satan's imagery of god is a person who would sacrifice all others beneath him to save himself.

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There's merit to what you say about Satan! I always lean on the idea that Satan thought God was weak, because of God's Humility and Mercy... Yet, what you say is also correct. Satan was superimposing his heart onto his personal image of God! Satan lusted for the very authority and Power of God and indeed tried to appeal to God as if God was petty in the ways of Vanity. That makes sense! Satan would only assume that He could stroke God's Vanity, if Satan perceived God weak and susceptible to flattery.

Do you have versus that may prop this up? I ask, because I am developing some Op's on such matters... and I imagine that as you speak the Holy Spirit is.... wait..... You are correct! Haman! Thank you. I haven't arrived at Haman yet

Grip Docility said:

There's merit to what you say about Satan! I always lean on the idea that Satan thought God was weak, because of God's Humility and Mercy... Yet, what you say is also correct. Satan was superimposing his heart onto his personal image of God! Satan lusted for the very authority and Power of God and indeed tried to appeal to God as if God was petty in the ways of Vanity. That makes sense! Satan would only assume that He could stroke God's Vanity, if Satan perceived God weak and susceptible to flattery.

Do you have versus that may prop this up? I ask, because I am developing some Op's on such matters... and I imagine that as you speak the Holy Spirit is.... wait..... You are correct! Haman! Thank you. I haven't arrived at Haman yet

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Sorry Grip I have to go. As always, it's been great hearing from you. I'm not exactly sure what scriptures you're looking for, but I think you're on the right track if you can see that the whole creation was made subject to vanity unwillingly, which I think implies it's circumstantial to being created. It's probably vain to think I'm not vain.

7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

Bradskii said:

Yes, you have. This is a forum. It's meant to be used as a place where we can exchange ideas. There's enough politics being tossed around elsewhere, so if you enjoy reading about someone complaining about drag artists or missing laptops there's plenty of opportunity for that.

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...........

Bradskii said:

Examples of a disability have been used because it's easy to see the connection. Clinical depression, low blood sugar etc. The cause is obvious. When it's not, does that mean it has no effect? Of course not. But if we can't see it happening we tend to think it didn't happen. And we examine moral problems because it's relatively easy to agree on whether one choice is better than another.

But we are determined to do what we consider the right thing to do as well as the wrong thing.

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Ignorance could also qualify as a disability. How many times do we all do things we later regret doing?

Grip Docility said:

There's merit to what you say about Satan! I always lean on the idea that Satan thought God was weak, because of God's Humility and Mercy... Yet, what you say is also correct. Satan was superimposing his heart onto his personal image of God! Satan lusted for the very authority and Power of God and indeed tried to appeal to God as if God was petty in the ways of Vanity. That makes sense! Satan would only assume that He could stroke God's Vanity, if Satan perceived God weak and susceptible to flattery.

Do you have versus that may prop this up? I ask, because I am developing some Op's on such matters... and I imagine that as you speak the Holy Spirit is.... wait..... You are correct! Haman! Thank you. I haven't arrived at Haman yet

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The way I see it is that Satan, in his God given beauty, became enamored with himself. His own worship of God would be more like a fealty accredited to his self rather than a sincere worship drawn out by the object of worship (similar to Cain's offering). Satan has the desire to be worshipped amongst the angels in heaven, even as God alone should be worshipped, Isaiah 14:12-14. Hence leviathan does not esteem any high thing and is King of the children of pride.

In the book of Job Satan is seen talking to God as if he knows mankind better than God does. I believe Satan is seen projecting his own lack of esteem for God onto Job, when he claims that Job only worships God because God gives him good things. I also notice that in the garden the serpent appears to be talking down to Eve, as if he knows God better than mankind does. He suggests to Eve that God is forbidding them from knowledge that would make mankind like unto gods (keeping them down so God can be higher).

As such, I don't believe Satan could comprehend the glory of God in the lowly servant image who called himself the son of man, the Christ; even because I believe Satan held to a vain image of god of his own creation which he also sowed in the world (tares), which is also why Jesus said: He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Bradskii said:

That's true. We can only act on the knowledge that we possess. Although the legal system says otherwise. With some exceptions, ignorance of the law is not an excuse to avoid criminal responsibility. It seems odd that there are many ways you could mitigate responsibility knowing that what you did was illegal, but not knowing it was illegal isn't one of them.

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Yes, I've heard that from a judge, that ignorance of the law is no excuse. But as for articulating a positive/negative analysis of determinism, we can not only act on the knowledge we possess, we are also forced to act out of ignorance.

This is why in semantics a will could logically be deemed freer according to knowledge even while others might claim wanton ignorance to be proof of a free will. I probably sound preachy, but what matters in the moral/immoral sense, is caring about how our actions affect others. And that's where love/compassion along with virtues like kindness, patience, and honesty, etc... are counted as greater than knowledge, because even the ignorant can be possessed with such qualities.

Bradskii said:

There's no doubt that we all have a will. When we make decisions we are exercising our will. If we are limited in our choices or contrained in some way then we couldn't call it free will. The question is then...what are those conditions over which we had no control which could be construed as constraints? Those conditions which determine our decision.

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I would think the will has to include the desire, not just the ability to choose. For example, because I have freedom of action, I can choose to make myself eat dung, but I can't choose to like it.

I think our inner desires manifest according to what we believe to be true, and we choose accordingly. So there is no doubt that comfort and discomfort are both factors that will influence our decisions at some base level, and the conditions that constrain are going to in some way shape or form fall under knowledge/ignorance of what is True, such as finding out dung isn't food. It therefore seems to me that we can be constrained from doing the dumb thing by knowledge, and we can be constrained from doing the smart thing by ignorance. But either way both knowledge and ignorance are relative to a Truth which precedes us in existence, so it qualifies as an antecedent.

Bradskii said:

But if we can't see it happening we tend to think it didn't happen.

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Good advice. In contradiction, determinists assert no free will but have no evidence of seeing that happening.

Contrapositive (same truth value):
If we think it did happen then we can see it happening.

Plenty of evidence in seeing free will happening.

Bradskii said:

But we are determined to do what we consider the right thing to do as well as the wrong thing.

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? We never choose that which we think is not good.

We choose what we think is the apparent good. Unfortunately, the apparent good is not always a real good. We call that free will.

childeye 2 said:

The way I see it is that Satan, in his God given beauty, became enamored with himself. His own worship of God would be more like a fealty accredited to his self rather than a sincere worship drawn out by the object of worship (similar to Cain's offering). Satan has the desire to be worshipped amongst the angels in heaven, even as God alone should be worshipped, Isaiah 14:12-14. Hence leviathan does not esteem any high thing and is King of the children of pride.

In the book of Job Satan is seen talking to God as if he knows mankind better than God does. I believe Satan is seen projecting his own lack of esteem for God onto Job, when he claims that Job only worships God because God gives him good things. I also notice that in the garden the serpent appears to be talking down to Eve, as if he knows God better than mankind does. He suggests to Eve that God is forbidding them from knowledge that would make mankind like unto gods (keeping them down so God can be higher).

As such, I don't believe Satan could comprehend the glory of God in the lowly servant image who called himself the son of man, the Christ; even because I believe Satan held to a vain image of god of his own creation which he also sowed in the world (tares), which is also why Jesus said: He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

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May I work this post into one of my OP series that I am working on, when it fits the topic of discussion?

Grip Docility said:

May I work this post into one of my OP series that I am working on, when it fits the topic of discussion?

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I assume you're aware that Knowledge can puff us up. I advise that you use it with humility as the Holy Spirit moves you.