Israel-Hamas Thread II

truthpls said:

That means nothing when attempting to apply it to a civilian population. It also gets murky when a population has every right and duty to object to being treated like prisoners and having lands stolen etc. Probably most of them wanted something to be done, some effort made to restore freedom and dignity and even lands etc. Because of past atrocities and killings of many family members by Israel, probably many of them were driven to desperation enough to wish the fanatics well in fighting their enemy. That is no excuse to murder tens of thousands of women and children, sorry.

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I think it's pretty obvious now where you stand. You talk a big game but then off all kinds of excuses for terrorist actions and those that support them. Even referring to stolen land while conveniently forgetting who the land where Israel sits belonged to in the first place.

Look the way of the world is this. The land belongs to whomever takes it and holds it. That's it. No it's not Christ like but expecting the world to be like Christ goes against everything the scripture teaches us about the world. The Arabs in the area have stolen the land from others and each other. I don't here you admonishing them for it. Every country in the world has been gained by conquering and subduing others. While God gave the land to the Jews they had to march in and take it, with his help. God even used other countries to come in and take it from them.

So please dont try and sell us on the fact that the Arabs in the region are poor innocent victims of the mean Israelis.

They have their own land. And had a lot of it even after Israel was formed. The fact that they chose to do nothing with it, and not live in peace and to continuously try and destroy and t ach their children to hate and destroy Israel is evidence they have and have had no intention of trying to live in peace and build their own thriving community. This could have ended a long time ago and they could have a thriving country right now, but they chose the way of war Everytime.

And Israel has their land back and they haven't tried to conquer anything else. They could have wiped out Gaza long before now, but chose to just try and be defensive in nature.

rjs330 said:

Well you should. Cause it's the correct one.

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Well, I don't. The promise is to Abraham and his descendants. Now Israel is one of those descendants.


So it would seem evident that the claim to this land is to be understood as an inclusive promise, not an exclusive promise.

The only time this was a Sovereign Jewish State was from the conquest of Jerusalem C1000BCE by David and the conquest of Canaan C925BCE by Shoshenq 1, the Egyptian.

One of the truly remarkable things about the Jewish people is how strongly they have maintained their cultural identity, both socially and theologically through many many years of diaspora - and not at the hands of others with a real interest in the land, save for peace of empire and prosperity for others.

It is a great shame that they have not found a way to engage in meaningful dialogue to find some meaningful way of co-existing, and yes I recognise that that boot fits feet on both sides.

Philip_B said:

Well, I don't. The promise is to Abraham and his descendants. Now Israel is one of those descendants.

Oldest to youngest: Ishmael (son, with Hagar) Isaac (son, with Sarah) Zimran (son, with Keturah) Jokshan (son, with Keturah) Medan (son, with Keturah) Midian (son, with Keturah) Ishbak (son, with Keturah) Shuah (son, with Keturah)

So it would seem evident that the claim to this land is to be understood as an inclusive promise, not an exclusive promise.

The only time this was a Sovereign Jewish State was from the conquest of Jerusalem C1000BCE by David and the conquest of Canaan C925BCE by Shoshenq 1, the Egyptian.

One of the truly remarkable things about the Jewish people is how strongly they have maintained their cultural identity, both socially and theologically through many many years of diaspora - and not at the hands of others with a real interest in the land, save for peace of empire and prosperity for others.

It is a great shame that they have not found a way to engage in meaningful dialogue to find some meaningful way of co-existing, and yes I recognise that that boot fits feet on both sides.

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Yes for those who are the Jewish descendants of Abraham. Not for the Arabs. God n very promised the Palestinian Arabs a land of their own not dis he created a nation for them as he did with the Jews.

It's a real shame that Israel tried to engage with the Arabs and were rebuffed every time or attacked by them. The fault lies not with the Jews. The Arabs are to blame for the issues through the years. Israel hasn't always responded with graciousness. But I can't blame them all when you are constantly under attack.

rjs330 said:

Yes for those who are the Jewish descendants of Abraham. Not for the Arabs. God n very promised the Palestinian Arabs a land of their own not dis he created a nation for them as he did with the Jews.

It's a real shame that Israel tried to engage with the Arabs and were rebuffed every time or attacked by them. The fault lies not with the Jews. The Arabs are to blame for the issues through the years. Israel hasn't always responded with graciousness. But I can't blame them all when you are constantly under attack.

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I think you missed the point. Abraham was the Father of many Nations. I am not sure how you discern discrimination in the promise. God is bigger than you imply. God so loved the world ...

rjs330 said:

I think it's pretty obvious now where you stand. You talk a big game but then off all kinds of excuses for terrorist actions and those that support them. Even referring to stolen land while conveniently forgetting who the land where Israel sits belonged to in the first place.

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It doesn't matter that God once gave it to them or that He will again give it to them in the future. What matters is they make out as if God gave it to them now. No way. Only after they get saved.

rjs330 said:

Look the way of the world is this. The land belongs to whomever takes it and holds it. That's it.

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You seem to be saying it doesn't matter how many they kill or what they steal or if they terrorize etc.

rjs330 said:

No it's not Christ like but expecting the world to be like Christ goes against everything the scripture teaches us about the world.

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No one expects the world to be Christ like. They do expect that camps like Auschwitz are not acceptable though. They do expect that terrorism is not OK. Genocide etc

The Arabs in the area have stolen the land from others and each other. I don't here you admonishing them for it.

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Lame excuse for terrorism and genocide.

While God gave the land to the Jews they had to march in and take it, with his help. God even used other countries to come in and take it from them.

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Ancient history, He did not give it to them today and won't until they get saved

rjs330 said:

So please dont try and sell us on the fact that the Arabs in the region are poor innocent victims of the mean Israelis.

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Forget 'arabs'. The folks being terrorized and mass murdered by Israel are victims.

rjs330 said:

They have their own land. And had a lot of it even after Israel was formed.

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They had Israel. Now they have a prison camp being bombed to smithereens while they starve

rjs330 said:

The fact that they chose to do nothing with it, and not live in peace and to continuously try and destroy and t ach their children to hate and destroy Israel is evidence they have and have had no intention of trying to live in peace and build their own thriving community.

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Mind your own business about what they teach their own children. That is no excuse to murder thousands of children.

rjs330 said:

This could have ended a long time ago and they could have a thriving country right now, but they chose the way of war Everytime.

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Yes and if we asked them they might say it could have ended if Israel left etc.

rjs330 said:

And Israel has their land back and they haven't tried to conquer anything else.

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No they do not have their land back. They OCCUPIED some of the land on their own. God will not give it to them until AFTER they get saved. Period.

rjs330 said:

They could have wiped out Gaza long before now, but chose to just try and be defensive in nature.

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They need to get along with neighbors. Or be unwelcome.

Philip_B said:

I think you missed the point. Abraham was the Father of many Nations. I am not sure how you discern discrimination in the promise. God is bigger than you imply. God so loved the world ...

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Yes of course. God so loved the world and all who receive his Son are now part of the inheritance. However the promised land in the middle east was only promised to Israel not the Arabs.

To miss that is to miss much of what God is doing in the world and how the end of this world occurs. God never renegs on his promises. He stated Israel would become a nation once again. And it happened in the area they were birthed and in the lands they were promised. To miss that also misses the Big God.

God is big enough that all his promises including the earthly ones come to pass.

And the fact remains that the Arabs had their opportunities to create a state and land of their own and didn't. In earthly terms they chose to be antagonistic, warlike and filled with hatred. They chose to focus on destruction instead of creation. That's on them.

truthpls said:

It doesn't matter that God once gave it to them or that He will again give it to them in the future. What matters is they make out as if God gave it to them now. No way. Only after they get saved.

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God gave it to them for until the end of the world. Only he can take it away or return it. He returned it to them just as promised. Now that doesn't mean they all get saved. Of course God gave it to them now. He fulfilled his promises.

truthpls said:

You seem to be saying it doesn't matter how many they kill or what they steal or if they terrorize etc.

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I'm referring to the world. And it's true in the nature of the things. We can complain about the morality of things, but the way of things is that in the end nations have always killed conquered and stole from each other. And nothing is built without it. War is terror on its own. Siezing power often comes with it.

truthpls said:

one expects the world to be Christ like. They do expect that camps like Auschwitz are not acceptable though. They do expect that terrorism is not OK. Genocide etc

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Of course people don't want that. No one said they do. But that doesn't negate the fact that countries and nations are formed from war, conquering and control of the land. Israel was granted the land by those who controlled it at the time and they decided to take it. It's the way of the world.

truthpls said:

Lame excuse for terrorism and genocide.

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Hmm.. still don't hear an admonishment of the Arabs here.

truthpls said:

Forget 'arabs'. The folks being terrorized and mass murdered by Israel are victims.

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That's just your opinion. Israel was attacked. You may not like their response, but they are entitled to it. When your country is attacked and has been for over 50 years then I think they are well entitled to respond in very harsh terms.

truthpls said:

They had Israel. Now they have a prison camp being bombed to smithereens while they starve

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No they didn't have Israel. The Ottoman Empire had it then the British had it. The Romans had it, the Jews had it. See how it works? Whomever controls it has it. They never controlled it. They were never a nation.

truthpls said:

Mind your own business about what they teach their own children. That is no excuse to murder thousands of children.

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Do you think Israel is responding in such a fashion simply because they taught their kids to hate and murder Jews?

truthpls said:

Yes and if we asked them they might say it could have ended if Israel left etc.

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I'm not to interested in listening to anyone who's had lots of opportunities for peace and prosperity by instead chose war, hatred and terrorism. Then apparently seeks sympathy from others when they are held to account.

truthpls said:

No they do not have their land back. They OCCUPIED some of the land on their own. God will not give it to them until AFTER they get saved. Period.

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That's not the promise from God. They do have their land back just as God promised they would.

truthpls said:

They need to get along with neighbors. Or be unwelcome.

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It's not them that refused to get along. It's the Arabs.

rjs330 said:

Yes of course. God so loved the world and all who receive his Son are now part of the inheritance. However the promised land in the middle east was only promised to Israel not the Arabs.

To miss that is to miss much of what God is doing in the world and how the end of this world occurs. God never renegs on his promises. He stated Israel would become a nation once again. And it happened in the area they were birthed and in the lands they were promised. To miss that also misses the Big God.

God is big enough that all his promises including the earthly ones come to pass.

And the fact remains that the Arabs had their opportunities to create a state and land of their own and didn't. In earthly terms they chose to be antagonistic, warlike and filled with hatred. They chose to focus on destruction instead of creation. That's on them.

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Genesis 17:1-8​

This promise to Abraham, before he had any children, is for all his inheritance, a multitude of nations. This is not simply for one of Abraham's children. When you make this simply a Jewish Promise, you are reading into the text, not reading out of the text.

Given that, we know they choose to describe themselves as Palestinians, a term first used in Roman times, it seems to me entirely provocative that you refer to them as Arabs (which they undoubtedly are) and they speak Arabic, - one of the Semitic Languages - yet they refer to themselves as Palestinians.

I am nearly not posting this as there seems little point, save for the point that not everyone sees the world the way you do, and it might even be reasonable to hold a view that does not match your view. For some reason, you are determined to exonerate the nation-state of Israel at every turn as though they were entirely without sin. Everyone involved in this conflict seems to be both sinner and sinned against.

USAID administrator says it is "credible" to assess famine is already occurring in parts of Gaza​

Power, speaking at a congressional hearing, was asked about an assessment from the Integrated Food Security Phase Classification (IPC) and whether it “is plausible or likely that parts of Gaza, and particularly northern Gaza, are already experiencing famine.”

“The methodology that the IPC used is one that we had our experts scrub,” Power said. “It's one that's relied upon in other settings and that is their assessment and we believe that assessment is credible.”

Power noted that the rate of malnutrition in northern Gaza prior to October 7 "was almost zero. And it is now one in three ... kids."

Discussion about whether Israel has a "right to the land God has given them", Abraham and Bible verses probably better belongs here:

A debate about Israel = posts pulled from a different thread​

rjs330 said:

God gave it to them for until the end of the world. Only he can take it away or return it. He returned it to them just as promised. Now that doesn't mean they all get saved. Of course God gave it to them now. He fulfilled his promises.

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He also took it away from them at times. The next time I see that they will get it back is after they are saved in the end. It is not theirs now.

rjs330 said:

I'm referring to the world. And it's true in the nature of the things. We can complain about the morality of things, but the way of things is that in the end nations have always killed conquered and stole from each other. And nothing is built without it. War is terror on its own. Siezing power often comes with it.

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WE can know right from wrong and good from evil. When a population is starved and hospitals attacked, convoys, aid workers and tens of thousands of women and children killed, that is evil.

rjs330 said:

Of course people don't want that. No one said they do. But that doesn't negate the fact that countries and nations are formed from war, conquering and control of the land. Israel was granted the land by those who controlled it at the time and they decided to take it. It's the way of the world.

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It was not a carte blanche grant. Nor did the neighbors grant it to them. Nor the people who lived there!

rjs330 said:

Hmm.. still don't hear an admonishment of the Arabs here.

That's just your opinion. Israel was attacked. You may not like their response, but they are entitled to it. When your country is attacked and has been for over 50 years then I think they are well entitled to respond in very harsh terms.

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Not response, but excuse for terror and genocide and mass murder.

rjs330 said:

No they didn't have Israel. The Ottoman Empire had it then the British had it. The Romans had it, the Jews had it. See how it works? Whomever controls it has it. They never controlled it. They were never a nation.

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The Balfour declaration intended the land to be shared if I remember correctly

rjs330 said:

Do you think Israel is responding in such a fashion simply because they taught their kids to hate and murder Jews?

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Doesn't matter why terrorists do what they do. Hitler had his excuses as well

rjs330 said:

I'm not to interested in listening to anyone who's had lots of opportunities for peace and prosperity by instead chose war, hatred and terrorism. Then apparently seeks sympathy from others when they are held to account.

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Maybe they saw 'opportunities for peace' as prison rule changes or some such?

rjs330 said:

That's not the promise from God. They do have their land back just as God promised they would.

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Chapter and verse!? That is a big claim.

rjs330 said:

It's not them that refused to get along. It's the Arabs.

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So point the finger at the victims. Not me, thanks. I see both sides as sinners. I also see one side mass murdering and starving and going full nazi on the other.

Philip_B said:

I will establish my covenant between me and you, and your offspring after you throughout their generations, for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your offspring after you. And I will give to you, and to your offspring after you, the land where you are now an alien, all the land of Canaan, for a perpetual holding; and I will be their God.’

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As you say the covenant was between Abraham and God. God's promise was to Abraham and his offspring and those after him. He gave them the land as a perpetual holding. Abraham's descendents are the Jews. They are not the Arabs. God is the God of Abraham Issac and Jacob.

The promise to Abraham was two fold. God promised that he would make out of Abraham a great nation.

Parashah 3: Lekh L’kha (Get yourself out) 12:1–17:27Now said to Avram, “Get yourself out of your country, away from your kinsmen and away from your father’s house, and go to the land that I will show you. I will make of you a great nation, I will bless you, and I will make your name great; and you are to be a blessing. I will bless those who bless you, but I will curse anyone who curses you; and by you all the families of the earth will be blessed.”

He also said that out of Abraham would come many nations.

God made two promises to Abraham not just one. The land he was being given was for all time the land of his descendants. The Jews. Out of Abraham was going to also come many nations. Which is the far reaching covenant. The covenant to Abraham is established by God himself. The "I will" statements. The land belongs to the Jews and it was established and set so by God. It was not given to the Arabs or to the English or French or any others.

That promise does NOT depend on the Jews being sinless or perfect or doing everything right. But it is there's regardless of what they do because God said forever. And God does not break his promises.

No Israel is not sinless, no one and no nation is. But God's promise is not based upon that. It's based on HIS character not ours and not the Jews.

And in this case the Jews have their land, it belongs to them. They have siezed what was theirs and it's the Arabs who have been ATTACKING them ever since instead of building their own nation in the area which they could have done and refused to do.

Now they are facing the repercussions of their hatred which have been severe and at times horrible to see. Hate often brings about horrid consequences to the hater.

truthpls said:

The Balfour declaration intended the land to be shared if I remember correctly

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The interesting phrase here is "it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of the existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine,". This was likely a 'fingers crossed' kind of promise or an aspirational whim without intending to do anything about it. It has been covered in the book "The Hundred Years War against Palestine" (https://www.amazon.com.au/Hundred-Years-War-Palestine-Colonialism/dp/1250787653 which I commend to people who want to be better informed). It should be recognized that British interest in Palestine following the end of the Ottoman Empire was to ensure the open trade route with India which at that stage was the Jewell in the Empire. The idea of more Jews in the region was likely consistent with that goal.

rjs330 said:

Abraham's descendents are the Jews. They are not the Arabs. God is the God of Abraham Issac and Jacob.

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I don't think that is correct. The Jews - the children of Israel - are not the only descendants of Abraham. Some of Abraham's descendants are Arabs. The Samaritans of course are also children of Israel, and they are not Jews by Jewish standards, yet intensely loyal to Abraham and to Jacob. The Jews are descendants of Abraham, however, not all of Abraham's descendants are Jews. I think it is pretty clear that some of them are Arabs, and indeed that would include the Palestinians of today.

Philip_B said:

The Balfour Declaration ​

His Majesty’s Government views with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of the existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country.​

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I think it is safe to say that the rights of the former residents were 'prejudiced'

Philip_B said:

The interesting phrase here is "it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of the existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine,". This was likely a 'fingers crossed' kind of promise or an aspirational whim without intending to do anything about it. It has been covered in the book "The Hundred Years War against Palestine" (https://www.amazon.com.au/Hundred-Years-War-Palestine-Colonialism/dp/1250787653 which I commend to people who want to be better informed). It should be recognized that British interest in Palestine following the end of the Ottoman Empire was to ensure the open trade route with India which at that stage was the Jewell in the Empire. The idea of more Jews in the region was likely consistent with that goal.

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It says what it says though, regardless of people reinventing the wheel as they would prefer.

truthpls said:

I think it is safe to say that the rights of the former residents were 'prejudiced'

It says what it says though, regardless of people reinventing the wheel as they would prefer.

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On the first, that is correct. On the second, I don't have a link at the moment, however, the Cabinet Briefing notes made by Lord Balfour make it quite clear that this was something that he saw no need to honour. This is part of the story of Lawrence of Arabia, and it was duplicitous diplomacy. Undoubtedly not the first and not the last time that has ever happened.

Philip_B said:

On the first, that is correct. On the second, I don't have a link at the moment, however, the Cabinet Briefing notes made by Lord Balfour make it quite clear that this was something that he saw no need to honour. This is part of the story of Lawrence of Arabia, and it was duplicitous diplomacy. Undoubtedly not the first and not the last time that has ever happened.

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It is only common sense and human dignity to know that you must live peaceably and fairly with people in a land you immigrate to. No interpretation of what something that was plainly stated 'really' means is needed.

Israel and Jews has been the target of Arab hatred since 1920s. It has been going on until this day. A dozen times has Israel given their trust to the Arabs but every time they have been met with violence. Israel just wants to live. On the other hand Hamas has a signed declaration to destroy Jews and most of the Palestinians support Hamas. To demand ceasefire when a murderer has your people as hostages and has pledged to continue their genocide is not normal. There is a supernatural influence in this and we must be careful where we stand.

Israel is the promised land for Gods chosen people. He has spread Jews across the world but stated the his people will come back the their land and this will mark the beginning of end times. Now is that time and according to bible they will eventually be alone, surrounded by their enemies, they have nobody to defend them until God intervenes.

God blesses those who bless Israel and curse those who curse Israel.

Philip_B said:

I don't think that is correct. The Jews - the children of Israel - are not the only descendants of Abraham. Some of Abraham's descendants are Arabs. The Samaritans of course are also children of Israel, and they are not Jews by Jewish standards, yet intensely loyal to Abraham and to Jacob. The Jews are descendants of Abraham, however, not all of Abraham's descendants are Jews. I think it is pretty clear that some of them are Arabs, and indeed that would include the Palestinians of today.

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I am referring to the descendents of the promise. The covenant God made with Abraham for the land. Those are the descendents of the promise. Abraham had descendants from Hagar. But he didn't make those descendants part of the covenant promise. In fact Abraham asked him to and God said no.


Avraham said to God, “If only Yishma‘el could live in your presence!” God answered, “No, but Sarah your wife will bear you a son, and you are to call him Yitz’chak [laughter]. I will establish my covenant with him as an everlasting covenant for his descendants after him. But as for Yishma‘el, I have heard you. I have blessed him. I will make him fruitful and give him many descendants. He will father twelve princes, and I will make him a great nation. But I will establish my covenant with Yitz’chak, whom Sarah will bear to you at this time next year.”
Bible Gateway passage: Genesis 17:18, Genesis 17:19, Genesis 17:20, Genesis 17:21 - Complete Jewish Bible

So the land that the Jews possessed from Abraham was only for those of Abraham and Sarah. That's the land Israel possesses.

truthpls said:

It is only common sense and human dignity to know that you must live peaceably and fairly with people in a land you immigrate to. No interpretation of what something that was plainly stated 'really' means is needed.

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We see it as common sense today from a 21st century mindset. But that is a change from history. Because that is not how it used to be. It's a fallicy to put up on history our morals and thought of today. You can't go back and if you did you'd probably be put in chains. War was the way and in many ways still is when it comes to getting land and holding it. People didn't live peacefully with each other. The Native Americans were as barbaric and warlike as any European.

The Arabs have been warlike throughout their history and still are today in many areas. Russia is attempting to seize land they believe is theirs through war.

It may be better to live peacefully but that's not the way of history and will never be attained in this world. The Anti-Christ brings unity to this planet through war and power. Christ returns and brings war with him and seizes control and brings peace.

Peace in this world is only maintained through the power of the sword.