women as priests

ralliann said:

• The Orthodox Christian tradition acknowledges the prophetic role of women alongside men. Throughout history, there have been notable female saints and holy women who were recognized as prophetesses.

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And Deborah was a prophetess, yes. She was also judge over the whole nation.
Israel had judges before they had kings. Gideon, Samson and several men that we never hear about, were judges.
So was Deborah - for 40 years.
When the country had a judge they followed and served God, when they didn't have a judge, they didn't, Judges 2:18-19.

Women may be full of love and emotion, and if they devote their love and emotion to Christ they can be very helpful. But in spite of this we cannot find in the whole Bible one single example of a woman being a priest. Perhaps God called women for other responsibilities. Priesthood is a Divine call and it is quite obvious in the Holy Bible that women were called for many, many responsibilities, but not for priesthood. The first priesthood was the priesthood of the great patriarchs of the church: Father Abraham, Father Noah, Father Isaac, Father Jacob. All these were men. The second kind of priesthood was the priesthood of Melchizedek, who was mentioned in Genesis, chapter 14, and in Hebrews chapter 7, and the priesthood of Aaron and his sons. All of them were men. There was not a single woman priest in all of the Old Testament. If God had wanted it, all right. Who can prevent God? The firstborn children who were sanctified to God before choosing the priesthood of Moses, Aaron and the sons of Aaron- were all men. When the Lord Jesus Christ chose the twelve Apostles to be the first priests or archpriests, or the first bishops or ecumenical bishops, they were all men. And the first bishops consecrated by them were also men.

Body of our Lord has its dignity, its respect, its work, its importance. We cannot say that all members may be heads, all may be eyes, may be arms, may be hearts! We cannot say this. If a woman is not called to be the head, perhaps she is called to be the heart, and no difference. Every member has its own work in the Church, and this also is what was said by the Apostle when he was speaking about the gifts of the Holy Spirit. We may read the First Epistle to the Corinthians, chapter 12: "But now indeed there are many members, yet one body. And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of hearings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues. Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are all workers of miracles? Do all have gifts of hearings?" (1Cor. 12: 20, 28-30). But God gave every member its own work. Men and women cannot be rivals in a certain responsibility. Women can perform many duties which are useful in the church, but they were not called for priesthood.

Tigran1245 said:

Women can perform many duties which are useful in the church, but they were not called for priesthood.

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Hundreds or women, today and over the last 40 years or so, can testify that they were, and are, called to priesthood.

Strong in Him said:

Hundreds or women, today and over the last 40 years or so, can testify that they were, and are, called to priesthood.

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If God had wanted to call women for priesthood, He would have done so, in the same way as He called women to be prophetesses.

The Church is a collection of the members of our Lord Jesus Christ. Every member performs a certain duty. We cannot say that all members are the same.

Tigran1245 said:

Women may be full of love and emotion, and if they devote their love and emotion to Christ they can be very helpful. But in spite of this we cannot find in the whole Bible one single example of a woman being a priest. Perhaps God called women for other responsibilities. Priesthood is a Divine call and it is quite obvious in the Holy Bible that women were called for many, many responsibilities, but not for priesthood. The first priesthood was the priesthood of the great patriarchs of the church: Father Abraham, Father Noah, Father Isaac, Father Jacob. All these were men. The second kind of priesthood was the priesthood of Melchizedek, who was mentioned in Genesis, chapter 14, and in Hebrews chapter 7, and the priesthood of Aaron and his sons. All of them were men. There was not a single woman priest in all of the Old Testament. If God had wanted it, all right. Who can prevent God? The firstborn children who were sanctified to God before choosing the priesthood of Moses, Aaron and the sons of Aaron- were all men. When the Lord Jesus Christ chose the twelve Apostles to be the first priests or archpriests, or the first bishops or ecumenical bishops, they were all men. And the first bishops consecrated by them were also men.

Body of our Lord has its dignity, its respect, its work, its importance. We cannot say that all members may be heads, all may be eyes, may be arms, may be hearts! We cannot say this. If a woman is not called to be the head, perhaps she is called to be the heart, and no difference. Every member has its own work in the Church, and this also is what was said by the Apostle when he was speaking about the gifts of the Holy Spirit. We may read the First Epistle to the Corinthians, chapter 12: "But now indeed there are many members, yet one body. And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of hearings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues. Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are all workers of miracles? Do all have gifts of hearings?" (1Cor. 12: 20, 28-30). But God gave every member its own work. Men and women cannot be rivals in a certain responsibility. Women can perform many duties which are useful in the church, but they were not called for priesthood.

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It would seem the traditional role of prophetess did not include priest. But was equally respected male or female ad to "gift of the spirit". Wisdom, understanding etc. qualities of judges. But here it also says men, yet we know Deborah, was a judge. We also do not have an example with a priest.

Ex 18:17 And Moses’ father in law said unto him, The thing that thou doest is not good.
18 Thou wilt surely wear away, both thou, and this people that is with thee: for this thing is too heavy for thee; thou art not able to perform it thyself alone.
19 Hearken now unto my voice, I will give thee counsel, and God shall be with thee: Be thou for the people to God-ward, that thou mayest bring the causes unto God:
20 And thou shalt teach them ordinances and laws, and shalt shew them the way wherein they must walk, and the work that they must do.
21 Moreover thou shalt provide out of all the people able men, such as fear God, men of truth, hating covetousness; and place such over them, to be rulers of thousands, and rulers of hundreds, rulers of fifties, and rulers of tens:
22 And let them judge the people at all seasons: and it shall be, that every great matter they shall bring unto thee, but every small matter they shall judge: so shall it be easier for thyself, and they shall bear the burden with thee.

KisKatte said:

Halo,

I want to know your opinions. Your sincere personal opinions.

God allowed divorce because of the hardened hearts of the men/husbands. Only because of that. So the law has a SENSE OF MEANING and is not for the bad but for the good. And if time change, the law is changed by God, too! And also it is written in the scripture that the letter is killing (= the written law), that instead we should be from the spirit! Yes it is written that women should shout their mouths in the church. But also it is written in the bible that also the daughters, not only the sons, will make prophecy in the future. Times are hard. Many priests for example are loyal to the aggressors if the aggressor is a man and do not allow the abused women to divorce. This is only one example. Yes a women priest can be lead out of the right path in DETAILS but in general I believe because of the abuse of power of man, wich did NOT stop in front of the church doors, we need women as priests. Also I do not believe in a too great difference between women and men. Maybe not EVERY woman should become clergy member. But some should for sure. Also only Paul the apostel, who first was chasing the christians wrote against women. Possibly at THAT time women were not capable to become clergy or even only the specific place Paul addressed his letter to. Now is another time. Another apostle writes there is no difference between men and women.

I do not believe in a perfect book, because God existed also before the bible existed and there is no perfect church neither a perfect book. We should also be capable to think logically for our own. So tell me just your since opinion. Would you like women as priests if this is a capable woman?

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There are a lot of assertions in this post.
I think that many of them are not Christian, and also not demonstrated as true.

I think that the use of "law" in this post, is not the biblical usage in the New Testament.

Tigran1245 said:

If God had wanted to call women for priesthood, He would have done so,

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He has done, and is.

Tigran1245 said:

The Church is a collection of the members of our Lord Jesus Christ. Every member performs a certain duty. We cannot say that all members are the same.

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Wanting to be the same as someone else is not an argument for ordination, nor a view I have heard expressed in this thread.

Stephen3141 said:

There are a lot of assertions in this post.

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Well the OP asked for opinions.
Some of those who are of the opinion that God can call women to preach, or be ordained, can back that with personal experience, plus a good understanding of the role that women played in the Bible.

Stephen3141 said:

I think that many of them are not Christian,

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What views do you believe are not Christian?

A hypothetical and perhaps an ethical dilemma. Could there be a women Pope.

I'll add this: My wife is an amazing woman. Devoted to God with a purity of thought I envy and respect and if she bothers to open her mouth for your benefit you would be wise to listen.

Josheb said:

I'll add this: My wife is an amazing woman. Devoted to God with a purity of thought I envy and respect and if she bothers to open her mouth for your benefit you would be wise to listen.

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Perhaps so. I am just doubtful about female priests is all. Doubtful is ok isn't it?

Paidiske said:

My understanding would be quite different. God created humankind in his image, and that image is not about our physicality, our biology, our sexed-ness (or gendered nature). To be in the image of God is to be rational, to be loving, to be creative, to be relational, to be able to exercise dominion over creation, and so on; it is not about what chromosomes or other physical characteristics we have.

If gender says anything about God at all, I would argue that it mirrors something of the distinction of persons yet unity of being in the Trinity, which we do see in some way in marriage; but I wouldn't extend that to particular gender roles...................

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Yet the Bible explicitly states humans were made in God's image male and female. It's probably not specifically about "chromosomes," but it need not exclude chromosomes. We know males and females are different (sex*), and we also know (despite the current political climate) men and women are different and even in the diversity masculine and feminine genders* cover, they remain different and mutually exclusive. Even the most feminine male is not female; nor the most masculine female male. Huge difference between feminine and effeminate. Think of a standardized bell curve (for those familiar with statistics). It does not matter what is measured, 95% of all people fall within two standard deviations of the population in a standard bell curve, and 99.7% falls within three standard deviations. Tak IQ, for example. The mean, mode, and median for humans is 100 and a standard deviation is 15 points. That means 99.7% of the population has IQs ranging from 55 (mildly retarded or developmentally disabled) to 145 (the bottom end of "genius"). It has always been this way - even in biblical times.

Deuteronomy 22:5
A woman shall not wear a man’s clothing, nor shall a man put on a woman’s clothing; for whoever does these things is an abomination to the LORD your God.

Throughout the Bible the gendered languages of Hebrew and Greek inherently speak of masculine and feminine attributes of God. We live in an era when we can crack open the skull and example the brain. We've taken apart ever part of human anatomy and we know PILES of stuff we didn't know 50 years ago, 50 centuries ago. God's known it all along because he made us - males and females - that way..... in His image. Sin has corrupted all of it and at the extreme ends sex and gender are so corrupted they become perverse and depraved.

The women I have listed in my posts are the exceptions to the rule but they are not extremes. However, I have little doubt that Deborah was a female, a woman of some sharp intellect and physical substance because if she partook in the actual battle then she was strong enough to lift a sword and shield and gut a man... again.... and again. Try cutting a roast with a sword sometime and see whether that is easy or hard. Try it one-handed while holding a shield in the other. Do it imagining the viscera of a man spilling onto you, and then another's, and another's again and again until the battle is over, by which time some of it has begun to harden and smell.

She was not Martha Stewart, Dylan Mulaney, or RuPaul.

She was a prophetess of God.


Just saying












*Properly understood "sex" is biology and "gender" is the range of behaviors normally associated with each sex as defined by a given culture. "Normal" is both statistical and normative. The statistical and normative outliers are called "deviant" because they are multiple standard deviations removed from the mean, mode, and median. The male sex and the female sex are monolithic. Gender is not. There is a wide range of behaviors associated with maleness, just as there is with femaleness. The problem we witness in today's political climate is the fallacy of extremes: extreme examples (both statistically and normatively) are asserted as normal. They are not. For those of you who did not already know this, you can now better understand the modern news.
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stevevw said:

A hypothetical and perhaps an ethical dilemma. Could there be a women Pope.

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Even if the Catholic Church made women priests, bishops, and cardinals.

A woman becoming the Pope would still be unlikely.

Because the Pope needs to represent both
liberal and conservative Catholics.

Josheb said:

Yet the Bible explicitly states humans were made in God's image male and female.

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Indeed, which is important, because some people try to argue that only men are made in God's image. But humanity - men and women - is in God's image.

Looking at the bible males definitely dominated whether as the prophets or Kings, leaders in battle or as diciplies of Christ and fathers of the early Church. The line of Christs passes through the paternal line back to Adam.

So theres definitely some different aspects between males and females as far as certain roles especially in times of chaos I think or when engaging in battles for God or when there was great change such as with Noah and the flood and Moses and the Isrealites or Joshua's leadership in establishing the promised land.

Ithinkthere is room for women leaders but I think males and females while bring many unifying aspects regarding the church on earth each brings some different and important aspects that need to be recognised.

Females are good as the social aspect of community, the emotional needs and the positive social networks that are the foundation of any community. I think males are more stoic in their emotions and thus able to be that leader and strength in times of adversity. Tolead the flock through the wilderness and into the promised land.

And of course this does not limit that each gender may have strengths and abilities of the opposite sex. But I think these are exceptions rather than the general ruleof nature as God ordered nature.

Paidiske said:

Indeed, which is important, because some people try to argue that only men are made in God's image. But humanity - men and women - is in God's image.

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By the way, since you're into Egalitarian theology, are you familiar with CBE International? If not, I came across the following article by Karen Strand Winslow that I think is interesting and relevant to this thread. It's in line with what Catherine Kroeger and her husband would have advocated on hermeneutical lines pertaining to the advocacy for the work and possible leadership of women in the Church. Although I can't say that I definitely agree with Winslow on all points, she provides some thoughtful angles on this thread's issue:

2PhiloVoid said:

By the way, since you're into Egalitarian theology, are you familiar with CBE International?

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I am! I haven't had much to do with them, but to the best of my knowledge they're pretty solid.

2PhiloVoid said:

If not, I came across the following article by Karen Strand Winslow that I think is interesting and relevant to this thread. It's in line with what Catherine Kroeger and her husband would have advocated on hermeneutical lines pertaining to the advocacy for the work and possible leadership of women in the Church. Although I can't say that I definitely agree with Winslow on all points, she provides some thoughtful angles on this thread's issue:

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Women Priests and the Image of God - CBE International

In this article, I examine the reasons that C. S. Lewis, a Christian apologist, Anglican layman, and medieval scholar, used to argue against women as Anglican priests, as well as the traditions articulated by Vatican councils that block women from the priesthood of the Roman Catholic Church. I...

www.cbeinternational.org

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There are a couple of places I think she's missed things I'd have liked to see included, but overall I agree with the thrust of her argument.

KisKatte said:

I do not believe in a perfect book,

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Say no more. :/

" The law of The Lord is 'perfect', converting the soul " (ps 119)

I'm a woman, and I think women have enough to worry about, when it comes to (Biblically) teaching the younger women. That's a task in itself (Not saying male priests are any more qualified nowadays)

What people forget to do when it comes to church 'works', is to "Wait on The Lord, again I say wait"

Priests should be sure they're called "many are called, but few are chosen"

Paidiske said:

I am! I haven't had much to do with them, but to the best of my knowledge they're pretty solid.

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It's an encouragement to me that you say so since it was Catherine Kroeger who, if I understand the history correctly, started CBE International. And I have been, thus far, reliant upon her (and her husband's) book on 1 Timothy chapter 2 which I keep mentioning on extra-biblical, historical and hermeneutical grounds----which surprisingly everyone here seems to ignore. (?)

Paidiske said:

There are a couple of places I think she's missed things I'd have liked to see included, but overall I agree with the thrust of her argument.

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I imagine that with the amount of experience and knowledge you bring to the table on egalitarian issues within the Church, you'd have a lot to add to Winslow's article. What additional points or corrections do you think need to be made to her article? I'd love to hear your input, however briefly or extensively you may have time to offer on it.

2PhiloVoid said:

And I have been, thus far, reliant upon her (and her husband's) book on 1 Timothy chapter 2 which I keep mentioning on extra-biblical, historical and hermeneutical grounds----which surprisingly everyone here seems to ignore. (?)

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I don't know it, so I can't really comment.

2PhiloVoid said:

I imagine that with the amount of experience and knowledge you bring to the table on egalitarian issues within the Church, you'd have a lot to add to Winslow's article. What additional points or corrections do you think need to be made to her article? I'd love to hear your input, however briefly or extensively you may have time to offer on it.

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A couple of things in the early portion, in particular, are that she discusses OT priests, and ecclesiastical priesthood as it developed after about the third century, but skips right over NT and very early church elders, despite that being an important part of the Anglican understanding of priesthood.

I also thought it would have been worth mentioning the ordination to the priesthood of Florence Li Tim-Oi during WWII, and how that shaped the discussion that Lewis was participating in. It's hard for me to imagine that Lewis wrote his paper unaware of Tim-Oi and the aftermath of her ordination, or that he would have failed to see his paper as a contribution to that wider discussion.